RMN SD numbers (built, sold and lost in Thunderbolt)

Theemile wrote:And it was stated that there were no war losses of either class.

Theemile wrote:
The Haven's are specifically a different class, as mentioned in the RMN area. And it was stated that there were no war losses of either class.

Hegemon wrote:

Theemile wrote:
The Haven's are specifically a different class, as mentioned in the RMN area. And it was stated that there were no war losses of either class.

The HoS states about Haven-class SDs: "the last were sold to Grayson along with the Duquesnes." So probably 14 Duquesnes and 3 Havens or 15 Duquesnes and Havens were sold in 1917.

Hegemon wrote:

Theemile wrote:And it was stated that there were no war losses of either class.

Could you indicate where was that stated ? Thank you.

Along with the handful of captured dreadnoughts and smaller classes, these ships provided rear area security for a number of Alliance systems during the early stages of the war, but were relegated to mothballs as their crews were needed to man the new construction, while the ships in best condition were all sold at scrap value to Grayson in early 1917.

Hegemon wrote:E) The inconsistency between the build rate of Alliance DNs and SDs (5 in 1905, 18 in 1806-1807, than 48-60 a year from 1908 according to High Admiral Wesley Matthews in Flag in Exile), the total number of wallers built by Grayson (25-27 SDs and 10 SD(P)s) between 1908 and 1913, and the number of Bellerophon-class DNs (23) and Gryphon-class SDs (127) built by Manticore between 1905 and 1913 according to House of Steel.

At the start of the war, RMN had in service (http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/105/1) :
- 186 SDs, of which 1 Manticore-class, 7 Samothrace-class, 25 King William-class, 14 Anduril-class, 36 Victory-class, 67 Sphinx-class and the rest of 36 Gryphon-class
- 121 DNs, of which 11 Ad Astra-class, 21 Royal Winton-class, 34 Gladiator-class, 40 Majestic-class and the rest of 15 Bellerophon-class
- The remainder of 163 - 36 = 127 Gryphon-class SDs and 38 - 15 = 23 Bellerophon-class DNs were built during the war, as follows:
- According to High Admiral Wesley Matthews in Flag in Exile, 5 wallers were commissioned by RMN in 1905 ("They also added thirty-one capital ships [of which] five more from new construction.") and 18 new ones were commissioning in 1806-1807 ("They had eighteen of the wall under construction in the Star Kingdom itself from prewar programs; those units are now proceeding on a crash priority basis to commission over the next six months, and their new war program will start delivering additional units within ten months.")
- This leaves 127 + 23 - 5 - 18 = 127 DNs and SDs built by Manticore between 1808 and 1813*, and 22-25 SDs and 10 SD(P)s built by the Graysons in the same six years. Even adding the Solarian DNs bought and upgraded by Erewhon (let us say 5 DNs a year), this would mean that the Alliance as a whole built no more than 192 wallers between 1808 and 1813, or 32 wallers a year.
- However, High Admiral Wesley Matthews projects the Alliance would build 48-60 wallers a year starting from 1908 ("Second, the Alliance will get its industry fully cranked up. (...) Once we hit our stride, we'll be turning out four or five of the wall a month.")

* The first RMN SD(P) commissioned only in middle or late 1914
** The RMN, GSN and EN were the only Alliance Navies that had wallers.

Theemile wrote:We found a number of mistakes with HoS early on, it seems no one noticed that the Havens never made it to the Grayson side. the Havens are >600 Ktons larger than the Dusquesnes, I doubt they would be rolled together.

Theemile wrote: Your last point is the major Error of this analysis. There was a fourth waller contributor, Talbot, the Star between Manticore and HaVenite Space. In one of the build counts, it was mentioned that it and the RMn Grendlesbane yard were adding to the waller count.

When trying to determine Manticore's construction capabilities after Oyster Bay, David told us that Talbot had mothballed their yard by the second war, and upset by Manticore's treatment of them in not sharring podlayer and other advanced technologies, as well as Haven's poisioning the well due to the diplomatic situation, Talbot stood neutral for the 2nd war.

So, in short, Talbot was a 1st war ally of Manticore, had a 1905 tech Waller build yard AND wallers in the first war and stood neutral in the second war. what their build rate, the number built, and the design of theor ships is unknown, other than they never got any advanced manty tech.

Theemile wrote:Next, you mentioned ships Completed during the first war. 35 Invictus class SD(p)s at Manticore, and 94 SD(p)s and CLACs at Grendlesbane were mothballed when over 60% complete. In addition, Grayson continued completing their wartime construction, having 115 in service by march 1920. Most of this construction work was complete during the 1st war, and completed later. remember, at the beginning of the series, the RMN took 36 -40 months to complete a SD, and at the Time of OB, they still took 22 months to build an SD(p). so literally, years of work is in the pipeline at any time, even though it is not "built", and any ramping up of construction capability is not seen for, sometimes, years.

Theemile wrote:In addition, you have not mentioned CLAC construction, which essentially replaced DN construction ( I believe the first RMN CLAC was purposefully limited to DN size in order to take advantage of the underutilized DN build slips after DN construction ceased. This allowed such massive prototype construction, without too much discussion of siphoning off SD resources.) 67 were laid down in the period you suggest, which could have been 67 Bellerophons.

You are correct that I have ignored CLAC construction, but most of those 67 CLACs were delivered in 1914 or later. Indeed of the 67 CLACs, 18 RMN Minotaurs were delivered in 1912-1914 (I remember reading that the second ship of that class was delivered more than a year after the lead ship), 6 GSN Minotaurs delivered in 1914, 24 Hydras delivered in 1914-1915 and 19 Hydras to be delivered 1915 but destroyed at Grendlesbane. So even including those 18 Minotaurs along with ,say, 24 Talbot wallers in the six years I discussed, the average would go up from 32 to 39 a year, still pretty short of 48-60 a year. Remember, out of 39 a year, 21 are RMN SDs and DNs, 3 are RMN CLACs, 6 are GSN SDs and SD(P)s, 5 are ESN modernized Solarian DNs and 4 are Talbot wallers,

Theemile wrote:After getting HoS and disecting it, we found several important points (and validated them with the authors) about the data, that is not mentioned in the book.

1) HoS is not dated co-terminus with the oyster Bay attack as many thought, but May 1st, 1921. Meaning there was ~9 additional months of construction not represented by this book.

Hegemon wrote:You know, until you brought it up, I never realized that Talbot System (with one 't') was an independent polity ! There is barely any mention of it in the novels, and even the tidbits present would suggest it was another repair base like Grendelsbane, whose build capacity was tapped during the war to build wallers. So I searched to see how could I have missed that and here is what I found:

kzt wrote:

Hegemon wrote:You know, until you brought it up, I never realized that Talbot System (with one 't') was an independent polity ! There is barely any mention of it in the novels, and even the tidbits present would suggest it was another repair base like Grendelsbane, whose build capacity was tapped during the war to build wallers. So I searched to see how could I have missed that and here is what I found:

I'm pretty sure David forgot about it too until we reminded him.