Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:At what range does a ballistic launch by the RMN become equal to Pre-FTL missile control? I'm certain that Honor's 150M klick launch out of the RZ = Pre FTL.

Pre-FTL = the good ole' days between the Hatfield and the McCoys err the Peeps and the 'Corns.

Of course Apollo, with its advantages in ECM would still greatly outperform Solarian hardware.

That's arguable. The ACM is "supposed to be" better than shipborn control was in 1905, because it is able to fuse data from all it's missiles and every other ACM in the launch, from a point about 1/4 of a light second behind the missiles, and use it's AI to formulate an attack on the fly.

However, I would say that a ACM too far beyond control is dangerous - if it misses it's target because the target moves outside the sensor basket during a ballistic phase, the ACM would continue on, hunting until it found a target. And, is it smart enough to determine a valid target from a invalid one? (Because let's face it, there are situations where you might be firing on a merchie, even though it has a Manty transponder code).

So long ballistic segments are the issue with distant Apollo launches. I really wouldn't want to say where the ACM goes from good to dangerous.

cthia wrote:At what range does a ballistic launch by the RMN become equal to Pre-FTL missile control? I'm certain that Honor's 150M klick launch out of the RZ = Pre FTL.

Pre-FTL = the good ole' days between the Hatfield and the McCoys err the Peeps and the 'Corns.

Of course Apollo, with its advantages in ECM would still greatly outperform Solarian hardware.

The short practical answer is, about 80 million km with their current tech.


The long more accurate answer is that there are two different answers to that question.

1] In normal space the FTL signal moves at the speed of light of the Alpha bands, so 62 times faster than the speed of light in normal space. In pure latency terms, if you ignore how far the FTL signal can actually be detected, the distance for latency to equal pre-FTL MDMs max (powered) range would be 62 * 65 million km = 4,030 million km (or 224 light-minutes). That's vastly further than the entire distance inside the hyperlimit[1]

2] However that's usually irrelevant since the limiting factor is the ability to actually transmit the FTL signal detectably that far. The furthest we've seen that signal transmitted is less than 4.5 light-minutes (80.9 million km). So that gives the practical answer from above that shipboard control from a Keyhole II is lower latency than pre-FTL fire control, out to only around 80ish million km (after which it's ineffective due to FTL signal strength/reception issue)



That's why Manticore developed and is deploying Mycroft repeaters throughout their system (or at least the area inside the hyper limit). You need them to take full advantage of the 62x transmission speed-up that Apollo gives; by relaying the signal again and again. (And those can handle a lot more missiles than the improvised Hermes lash-up Honor used)

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[1] Heck, FTL across the hyper limit (~44 light-minute diameter) is only about 50% more lag than a single-drive missile would have.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:At what range does a ballistic launch by the RMN become equal to Pre-FTL missile control? I'm certain that Honor's 150M klick launch out of the RZ = Pre FTL.

Pre-FTL = the good ole' days between the Hatfield and the McCoys err the Peeps and the 'Corns.

Of course Apollo, with its advantages in ECM would still greatly outperform Solarian hardware.

The short practical answer is, about 80 million km with their current tech.


The long more accurate answer is that there are two different answers to that question.

1] In normal space the FTL signal moves at the speed of light of the Alpha bands, so 62 times faster than the speed of light in normal space. In pure latency terms, if you ignore how far the FTL signal can actually be detected, the distance for latency to equal pre-FTL MDMs max (powered) range would be 62 * 65 million km = 4,030 million km (or 224 light-minutes). That's vastly further than the entire distance inside the hyperlimit[1]

2] However that's usually irrelevant since the limiting factor is the ability to actually transmit the FTL signal detectably that far. The furthest we've seen that signal transmitted is less than 4.5 light-minutes (80.9 million km). So that gives the practical answer from above that shipboard control from a Keyhole II is lower latency than pre-FTL fire control, out to only around 80ish million km (after which it's ineffective due to FTL signal strength/reception issue)



That's why Manticore developed and is deploying Mycroft repeaters throughout their system (or at least the area inside the hyper limit). You need them to take full advantage of the 62x transmission speed-up that Apollo gives; by relaying the signal again and again. (And those can handle a lot more missiles than the improvised Hermes lash-up Honor used)

------
[1] Heck, FTL across the hyper limit (~44 light-minute diameter) is only about 50% more lag than a single-drive missile would have.

I. C. Thanks.

As per Hermes. I was hoping the tactic was reusable simply because there's a chance that some Malignant force some time in the future may acquire the ability to localize and destroy Mycroft, in the possible chance that I'm right in my argument with Weird Harold that MAlign stealth is a cut above.

They may not be aware of the RMNs one time use of Hermes in the same capacity. Sparing Hermes. The pump is primed for plot.

Theemile wrote:What Honor did with her fleet couldn't be replicated under other conditions. Only in Manticore space in 1921 pd was she able to find the emplaced buoys to control just 64 missiles out to 150MKM. It's not like she could take it with her to another system, so it is not indicative of what Apollo can do. (If she was in Apollo range, she could have controlled 100x that salvo size from 1 ship alone)

I swear we've seen Hermes used in systems where Manticore is only passing through. In fact I looked and SftS has Ajax deploying half a dozen of them.

However nothing says that all Hermes Buoys need to be equal. It's quite likely that whatever version a warship can deploy and position has far more limited bandwidth than a permanently installed version providing FTL data links within the Manticoran home system.

After all when a warship deploys one it's usually just to wow the primitive SL navy with their 'impossible' transmission times. So it only really needs to carry a single bi-directional video link. It's possible that the minimum bandwidth to control even as one Apollo Control missile (much less the 6 Honor was barely able to handle in her trick-shot demonstration to Tourville) exceeds the capabilities of what those ship deployed buoys can handle.

If so then you'd need the same luck Honor did of having an enemy too close to a high capacity version, capable of handling 6 AMCs (controlling less than 60 attack missiles). But Hermes buoys, especially big high capacity models, would logically tend to be placed only where there's demand for high data traffic. So until an enemy get pretty close to a planet it seem unlikely they'd stumble past one.

Hi Jonathan_S,

Way back at the Bar soon after AAC came out, his celeryness explained the Apollo then had a effective range of 90 million km, which was being extended as the RMN improved it, so when Tourville asks her in MoH if she really could have launched overwhelming Apollo volleys, she admits she couldn't, although the posted unspoken thought implied that had changed already.

Your explanation may dial that back with a retcon, do you have further data?

The problem I have with the 4 stage SD Apollo's is that terminal velocity for the 3 stage is already 243,540 km/sec, and any and all man made objects or devices go irrelevant at .9C, so the 4th stage has less than 27,000 km/sec [less than 59 seconds] to accelerate to before limiting their terminal velocity, unless the 3 stage burn times have been changed, or the acceleration rate.

Looking forward to further details.

L

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:At what range does a ballistic launch by the RMN become equal to Pre-FTL missile control? I'm certain that Honor's 150M klick launch out of the RZ = Pre FTL.

Pre-FTL = the good ole' days between the Hatfield and the McCoys err the Peeps and the 'Corns.

Of course Apollo, with its advantages in ECM would still greatly outperform Solarian hardware.

The short practical answer is, about 80 million km with their current tech.


The long more accurate answer is that there are two different answers to that question.

1] In normal space the FTL signal moves at the speed of light of the Alpha bands, so 62 times faster than the speed of light in normal space. In pure latency terms, if you ignore how far the FTL signal can actually be detected, the distance for latency to equal pre-FTL MDMs max (powered) range would be 62 * 65 million km = 4,030 million km (or 224 light-minutes). That's vastly further than the entire distance inside the hyperlimit[1]

2] However that's usually irrelevant since the limiting factor is the ability to actually transmit the FTL signal detectably that far. The furthest we've seen that signal transmitted is less than 4.5 light-minutes (80.9 million km). So that gives the practical answer from above that shipboard control from a Keyhole II is lower latency than pre-FTL fire control, out to only around 80ish million km (after which it's ineffective due to FTL signal strength/reception issue)



That's why Manticore developed and is deploying Mycroft repeaters throughout their system (or at least the area inside the hyper limit). You need them to take full advantage of the 62x transmission speed-up that Apollo gives; by relaying the signal again and again. (And those can handle a lot more missiles than the improvised Hermes lash-up Honor used)

------
[1] Heck, FTL across the hyper limit (~44 light-minute diameter) is only about 50% more lag than a single-drive missile would have.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Jonathan_S,

Way back at the Bar soon after AAC came out, his celeryness explained the Apollo then had a effective range of 90 million km, which was being extended as the RMN improved it, so when Tourville asks her in MoH if she really could have launched overwhelming Apollo volleys, she admits she couldn't, although the posted unspoken thought implied that had changed already.

Your explanation may dial that back with a retcon, do you have further data?

The problem I have with the 4 stage SD Apollo's is that terminal velocity for the 3 stage is already 243,540 km/sec, and any and all man made objects or devices go irrelevant at .9C, so the 4th stage has less than 27,000 km/sec [less than 59 seconds] to accelerate to before limiting their terminal velocity, unless the 3 stage burn times have been changed, or the acceleration rate.

Looking forward to further details.

I guess the benifit of the 4th stage, if you're expecting really long ballistic segments courtesy of the ridiculous FTL range a system full of Mycroft relays should give then I guess the (presumably) 3.5 million km lateral displacement (in 75 seconds) might be needed. But yeah, for linear speed really isn't worth it.

All the data I have from Apollo range I gleaned from the books, but there aren't many data points. The ones I found were:
* The Battle of Manticore - McKeon firing on Chin 2.3 light-minutes [41,700,000 km]
* The Battle of Solon (first combat use) - 3 light-minutes [53,962,642 km]
* The Battle of Manticore - Honor firing on Chin 4.05 light-minutes [73,000,000 km]
* Mike's simulated BC(P) w/ Apollo attack 4.52 light-minutes [81,400,000 km]
* The Battle of Manticore - Honor 'trick shot' via Hermes 8 light-minutes [150,000,000 km]

I had missed (or forgotten) the statement from RFC you mentioned about a 90 million km range, but that certainly tracks with the limited data seen in the books. Still what the actual max range was at each of those times, or what it might be now, is hard to say.

Jonathan_S wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Jonathan_S,

Way back at the Bar soon after AAC came out, his celeryness explained the Apollo then had a effective range of 90 million km, which was being extended as the RMN improved it, so when Tourville asks her in MoH if she really could have launched overwhelming Apollo volleys, she admits she couldn't, although the posted unspoken thought implied that had changed already.

Your explanation may dial that back with a retcon, do you have further data?

The problem I have with the 4 stage SD Apollo's is that terminal velocity for the 3 stage is already 243,540 km/sec, and any and all man made objects or devices go irrelevant at .9C, so the 4th stage has less than 27,000 km/sec [less than 59 seconds] to accelerate to before limiting their terminal velocity, unless the 3 stage burn times have been changed, or the acceleration rate.

Looking forward to further details.

I guess the benifit of the 4th stage, if you're expecting really long ballistic segments courtesy of the ridiculous FTL range a system full of Mycroft relays should give then I guess the (presumably) 3.5 million km lateral displacement (in 75 seconds) might be needed. But yeah, for linear speed really isn't worth it.

All the data I have from Apollo range I gleaned from the books, but there aren't many data points. The ones I found were:
* The Battle of Manticore - McKeon firing on Chin 2.3 light-minutes [41,700,000 km]
* The Battle of Solon (first combat use) - 3 light-minutes [53,962,642 km]
* The Battle of Manticore - Honor firing on Chin 4.05 light-minutes [73,000,000 km]
* Mike's simulated BC(P) w/ Apollo attack 4.52 light-minutes [81,400,000 km]
* The Battle of Manticore - Honor 'trick shot' via Hermes 8 light-minutes [150,000,000 km]

I had missed (or forgotten) the statement from RFC you mentioned about a 90 million km range, but that certainly tracks with the limited data seen in the books. Still what the actual max range was at each of those times, or what it might be now, is hard to say.

However, the mk-23 F ACM is supposed to have a larger body and hense a larger FTL array further tweaked for better range. Henke is informed of it before she ships out to take 10 the fleet.

Will the Hermes platforms be replaced by Mycroft's coverage or augmented?

Maybe in UH we'll get an update on Sir Lyman Carmichael. I hope that thread isn't left hanging. No man left behind.

cthia wrote:Will the Hermes platforms be replaced by Mycroft's coverage or augmented?

I suspect left in parallel. The Hermes buoys, even the big hig-capacity ones in the Manticore system are used for military and increasingly civilian comm traffic (at least official government, but probably non-government as well). So they'll be yammering away via FTL grav pulses all the time.

The Mycroft relays, while probably perfectly capable of passing FLT comm data are primarily fire control platforms. As part of the system defense they probably spend a lot of their time emulating a hole in space. You want those silent to make it difficult for an enemy to reliably locate them before they go active.

(Also the Hermes need to go different places. It doesn't make a lot of sense to run a line of Mycroft nodes out the 7 light-hours to the Junctions. After all, what are the chances of an invasion force charging straight down the dead center of the resonance zone? But we know they already have Hermes buoys between Junction and Manticore.