[Spoiler - UH] utube snippet

This is about the worst possible thing that could happen.

Dude was behind murderous terrorist attacks in Manticore's newly annexed territory. He was one of the killers. He doesn't get to claim innocence in this. He can't even say he had no idea the mentally unstable terrorist might go off script. If an intrepid investigative journalist finds out, say O'Hanrahan, they can publicize it.

Manticore has a few options if that does happen:
1) Deny everything and go for a cover up. Manticore doesn't have the institutional expertise in this area, and people like O'Hanrahan do.

2) Admit it and hand Firebrand over to be executed. This will likely anger the treecats. No more fuzzy bodyguards. Worse the treecats might not accept this and do something drastic.

3) Admit it, but protect Firebrand. This creates two big problems. First, it makes it look like Manticore was actually in league with Firebrand all along. Oops. Second, it will anger the families and planets of the people he murdered to no end. That's a perfect issue for Mesan infiltrators to exploit and form a new political party around.

4) Split the difference and jail Firebrand for life. This has the potential to anger both treecats AND the Talbot Cluster AND blow up in their face because they have Rule of Law. It also might just not work. If I was an intrepid prosecutor trying to make a name for myself and someone from the Government came and told me I couldn't seek the death penalty I would make a recording of it, seek the death penalty anyway, and see if I could charge them for something. (I'd also invest in a few cybernetic enhancements, armored clothing and personal defense drones/equipment.)

This is the best thing that could happen.
You get a "pro" on your side.
A biosculpt, name change and who is going to know.

quite possibly a cat wrote:This is about the worst possible thing that could happen.

Dude was behind murderous terrorist attacks in Manticore's newly annexed territory. He was one of the killers. He doesn't get to claim innocence in this. He can't even say he had no idea the mentally unstable terrorist might go off script. If an intrepid investigative journalist finds out, say O'Hanrahan, they can publicize it.

Manticore has a few options if that does happen:
1) Deny everything and go for a cover up. Manticore doesn't have the institutional expertise in this area, and people like O'Hanrahan do.

(snip)

How about the Manticoran equivalent of the Witness Protection Program?

Without sanctioning the stuff Harahap was involved with, I found myself sympathizing with him. Even villans can be three dimensional, after all. He escaped his birth world and took the only option he could see to better himself.

Finally, the issues here are larger than Harahap. So I'm glad he finally found a decent cause to serve. Thinking of him with a treecat is delicious...

As for his past, there is such a thing as redemption.

Don

-

filbert wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:This is about the worst possible thing that could happen.

Dude was behind murderous terrorist attacks in Manticore's newly annexed territory. He was one of the killers. He doesn't get to claim innocence in this. He can't even say he had no idea the mentally unstable terrorist might go off script. If an intrepid investigative journalist finds out, say O'Hanrahan, they can publicize it.

Manticore has a few options if that does happen:
1) Deny everything and go for a cover up. Manticore doesn't have the institutional expertise in this area, and people like O'Hanrahan do.

(snip)

How about the Manticoran equivalent of the Witness Protection Program?

Umm... What about the Manticoran equivalent of the Witness Protection Program?

Such a program could certainly be used to protect Firebrand, but it wouldn't cover anything up. Indeed, if its above board he would have to *testify* after all. You could also try to cover him up with Manty witness protection doing the dirty work.

quite possibly a cat wrote:This is about the worst possible thing that could happen.

Dude was behind murderous terrorist attacks in Manticore's newly annexed territory. He was one of the killers. He doesn't get to claim innocence in this. He can't even say he had no idea the mentally unstable terrorist might go off script. If an intrepid investigative journalist finds out, say O'Hanrahan, they can publicize it.

Manticore has a few options if that does happen:
1) Deny everything and go for a cover up. Manticore doesn't have the institutional expertise in this area, and people like O'Hanrahan do.

2) Admit it and hand Firebrand over to be executed. This will likely anger the treecats. No more fuzzy bodyguards. Worse the treecats might not accept this and do something drastic.

3) Admit it, but protect Firebrand. This creates two big problems. First, it makes it look like Manticore was actually in league with Firebrand all along. Oops. Second, it will anger the families and planets of the people he murdered to no end. That's a perfect issue for Mesan infiltrators to exploit and form a new political party around.

4) Split the difference and jail Firebrand for life. This has the potential to anger both treecats AND the Talbot Cluster AND blow up in their face because they have Rule of Law. It also might just not work. If I was an intrepid prosecutor trying to make a name for myself and someone from the Government came and told me I couldn't seek the death penalty I would make a recording of it, seek the death penalty anyway, and see if I could charge them for something. (I'd also invest in a few cybernetic enhancements, armored clothing and personal defense drones/equipment.)

Wasn't he on 'detached duty' at that point from the Solarian Gendarmerie? In which case, no PR or legal problem - he was a Solly agent, working for the Mesans on the instructions of his commanding officer. The Manties are certainly entitled to shoot him; if they choose to 'turn' him, that's an accepted practice in espionage. He now has, after all, a furry parole officer who's going to stay with him 24/7.

I doubt that even Audrey Hanrahan could persuade even the Solly public that Hararap was employed by Manticore to destabilise their own newly acquired planets.

The bonding makes the situation very much like executing a pregnant woman - go through with it, and you're punishing an innocent (because Clean Killer will almost certainly suicide). Definitely grounds for commutation; Manticore has laws protecting treecats. It's up to RFC whether he decides there's in fact some previous legal precedent.

Bluesqueak wrote:
Wasn't he on 'detached duty' at that point from the Solarian Gendarmerie? In which case, no PR or legal problem - he was a Solly agent, working for the Mesans on the instructions of his commanding officer.

I think the point of 'detached duty' is to give the Sollies plausible deniability. No one will have created records of telling him to go work for Mesa.

Bluesqueak wrote:I doubt that even Audrey Hanrahan could persuade even the Solly public that Hararap was employed by Manticore to destabilise their own newly acquired planets.

Maybe, but O'Hanrahan will have help. Manticore will desperately be trying to convince everyone that a government bombing its own people is a plausible event. In fact, Manticore arguing such a thing actually proves Manticore believes its a viable tactic, even if not a single other government would consider it.

IIRC, the planets still had to vote too.

The bonding makes the situation very much like executing a pregnant woman - go through with it, and you're punishing an innocent (because Clean Killer will almost certainly suicide). Definitely grounds for commutation; Manticore has laws protecting treecats. It's up to RFC whether he decides there's in fact some previous legal precedent.

Its possible legal precedent is there, or that Queen Elizabeth has the power to commute sentences. Put that won't change the political and P.R. issues. Firebrand killed a lot of innocent people. Are you going to tell their families that Firebrand gets a pass because he made friends with some alien? Because Manticore cares about alien rights that much?

quite possibly a cat wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:
Wasn't he on 'detached duty' at that point from the Solarian Gendarmerie? In which case, no PR or legal problem - he was a Solly agent, working for the Mesans on the instructions of his commanding officer.

I think the point of 'detached duty' is to give the Sollies plausible deniability. No one will have created records of telling him to go work for Mesa.

Which makes things even worse for the Sollies. If they don't have a record that Hararap was on leave, then their agent was working to destabilise Manticore in the Talbott Sector. Before there was a war. Which makes Byng's idiocy start to look like a concerted effort by the League to start a war with Manticore.

Bluesqueak wrote:I doubt that even Audrey Hanrahan could persuade even the Solly public that Hararap was employed by Manticore to destabilise their own newly acquired planets.

Maybe, but O'Hanrahan will have help. Manticore will desperately be trying to convince everyone that a government bombing its own people is a plausible event. In fact, Manticore arguing such a thing actually proves Manticore believes its a viable tactic, even if not a single other government would consider it.

IIRC, the planets still had to vote too. [/quote]

A government bombing its own people is entirely plausible (it's happened in RL) if the government expects to gain an advantage. Of course, for a democratic and law abiding government, the advantage is usually that allowing or carrying out this bombing prevents more deaths in the future.. But what I don't think even Audrey Hanrahan could do is persuade anyone that there was any advantage for Manticore in destabilising Talbott - especially when the agent doing the destabilising is a Solarian Gendarme.

Is it to Manticore's advantage? No. Is it to the Solarian League's advantage? Yes. So is everyone supposed to believe that Manticore is so terminally stupid that they would sponsor a terrorist organisation on a planet that's already joined them using an agent on leave from the Gendarmerie? Montana had certainly voted before Firebrand ever got there - that's why Westman was kicking off.

Using RFC's phrase, I think only a particularly credulous three year old would swallow that one.

The bonding makes the situation very much like executing a pregnant woman - go through with it, and you're punishing an innocent (because Clean Killer will almost certainly suicide). Definitely grounds for commutation; Manticore has laws protecting treecats. It's up to RFC whether he decides there's in fact some previous legal precedent.

Its possible legal precedent is there, or that Queen Elizabeth has the power to commute sentences. Put that won't change the political and P.R. issues. Firebrand killed a lot of innocent people. Are you going to tell their families that Firebrand gets a pass because he made friends with some alien? Because Manticore cares about alien rights that much?[/quote]

Yes.

Try reading John Le Carre, who really did work for British Intelligence, or looking at the history of double agents in WW2. There's a standard procedure for enemy agents who cooperate - and since Hararap is telling the Manties everything he knows, he's clearly aware of it. Again, it runs on the 'prevent future deaths' principle. If Hararap gives the Manties enough information, information that can save Manticoran lives, he will be treated as 'enemy agent' - and NOT as 'murderous criminal'. Prison, quite possibly. But not execution. You want future mercenaries like Hararap to believe that there's something to gain by spilling the beans.

And that long standing principle will be the explanation given to the families, if any is needed. What do they want? Vengeance against Firebrand? Or vengeance against the people who sent him out in the first place?

What the bonding has done is made the moral problem of sparing Hararap, of trusting him, of using his undoubted talents against the MAlign, very simple. They can't execute him, because that will kill another person. They do, now, have someone with Hararap who is both telepathic and highly, highly motivated towards the utter destruction of the Mesan Alignment.

So, the bonding is the more interesting story choice.

quite possibly a cat wrote:This is about the worst possible thing that could happen.

Dude was behind murderous terrorist attacks in Manticore's newly annexed territory. He was one of the killers. He doesn't get to claim innocence in this. He can't even say he had no idea the mentally unstable terrorist might go off script. If an intrepid investigative journalist finds out, say O'Hanrahan, they can publicize it.

Manticore has a few options if that does happen:
1) Deny everything and go for a cover up. Manticore doesn't have the institutional expertise in this area, and people like O'Hanrahan do.

2) Admit it and hand Firebrand over to be executed. This will likely anger the treecats. No more fuzzy bodyguards. Worse the treecats might not accept this and do something drastic.

3) Admit it, but protect Firebrand. This creates two big problems. First, it makes it look like Manticore was actually in league with Firebrand all along. Oops. Second, it will anger the families and planets of the people he murdered to no end. That's a perfect issue for Mesan infiltrators to exploit and form a new political party around.

4) Split the difference and jail Firebrand for life. This has the potential to anger both treecats AND the Talbot Cluster AND blow up in their face because they have Rule of Law. It also might just not work. If I was an intrepid prosecutor trying to make a name for myself and someone from the Government came and told me I couldn't seek the death penalty I would make a recording of it, seek the death penalty anyway, and see if I could charge them for something. (I'd also invest in a few cybernetic enhancements, armored clothing and personal defense drones/equipment.)

What Harahap is guilty of is gun running, smuggling and providing material support to terrorists. They could do one of two things. First send him to prison till the next century or like they're doing now a major intelligence source. The latter probably comes with a few conditions like lie or mislead and you spend the next few decades as guest at Alcatraz Orbital Prison in Manticore-B Gorgon Asteroid Belt.

saber964 wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:This is about the worst possible thing that could happen.

Dude was behind murderous terrorist attacks in Manticore's newly annexed territory. He was one of the killers. He doesn't get to claim innocence in this. He can't even say he had no idea the mentally unstable terrorist might go off script. If an intrepid investigative journalist finds out, say O'Hanrahan, they can publicize it.

Manticore has a few options if that does happen:
1) Deny everything and go for a cover up. Manticore doesn't have the institutional expertise in this area, and people like O'Hanrahan do.

2) Admit it and hand Firebrand over to be executed. This will likely anger the treecats. No more fuzzy bodyguards. Worse the treecats might not accept this and do something drastic.

3) Admit it, but protect Firebrand. This creates two big problems. First, it makes it look like Manticore was actually in league with Firebrand all along. Oops. Second, it will anger the families and planets of the people he murdered to no end. That's a perfect issue for Mesan infiltrators to exploit and form a new political party around.

4) Split the difference and jail Firebrand for life. This has the potential to anger both treecats AND the Talbot Cluster AND blow up in their face because they have Rule of Law. It also might just not work. If I was an intrepid prosecutor trying to make a name for myself and someone from the Government came and told me I couldn't seek the death penalty I would make a recording of it, seek the death penalty anyway, and see if I could charge them for something. (I'd also invest in a few cybernetic enhancements, armored clothing and personal defense drones/equipment.)

What Harahap is guilty of is gun running, smuggling and providing material support to terrorists. They could do one of two things. First send him to prison till the next century or like they're doing now a major intelligence source. The latter probably comes with a few conditions like lie or mislead and you spend the next few decades as guest at Alcatraz Orbital Prison in Manticore-B Gorgon Asteroid Belt.

They can use him as an intelligence asset while keeping him in jail. Those two things are in no way mutually exclusive.