Military Impersonating Civilians

pappilon wrote:And as far as the dilapidated amusement park is concerned, it was basically taken over by slavers in the first place. And the beowulfers that "liberated" it are careful to take on only slavers. So, by the Cherwell Convention is perfectly legal.

That's no more of a military action than a SWAT team doing a No Knock search on a crack house. It was a police action being performed by military personnel.

It's not who did it but what was done and why it was carried out that decides what is or isn't a military action.

Pirates and slavers are not legal combatants. They are not combatants at all. They are criminals that, by treaty and tradition, may be summarily executed upon apprehension.

jtg452 wrote:

pappilon wrote:And as far as the dilapidated amusement park is concerned, it was basically taken over by slavers in the first place. And the beowulfers that "liberated" it are careful to take on only slavers. So, by the Cherwell Convention is perfectly legal.

That's no more of a military action than a SWAT team doing a No Knock search on a crack house. It was a police action being performed by military personnel.

It's not who did it but what was done and why it was carried out that decides what is or isn't a military action.

Pirates and slavers are not legal combatants. They are not combatants at all. They are criminals that, by treaty and tradition, may be summarily executed upon apprehension.

Even so one would like to verify that it is the Golden Butterfly and not the Iron Butterfly that is the slaver. No S.W.A.T. commander wants to be the guy that shot up a doggy day care center.

pappilon wrote:

jtg452 wrote:The only legal difference is that the first two get you shot as a spy or saboteur that is out of uniform.

The third one gets you hung for war crimes.

Attacking civilians for the sake of attacking civilians- meaning that they are not collateral damage due to an attack on a legitimate target- isn't acceptable behavior according to the laws of war and opens the nation committing such acts up to reprisal attacks in kind.

And as far as the dilapidated amusement park is concerned, it was basically taken over by slavers in the first place. And the beowulfers that "liberated" it are careful to take on only slavers. So, by the Cherwell Convention is perfectly legal.

I was thinking of Victor and company killing Mesan first responders when I brought up civilians. Like the police officers who were just trying to massacre some innocent seccies.

Now, I'm sure we would agree Victor and co. was mostly doing the right thing in book three. But at the very least, it makes for really good propaganda to be able to interview a widow or widower who lost their brave civilian husband/wife law enforcement hero to the vile Haven/Manticore military.

pappilon wrote:Even so one would like to verify that it is the Golden Butterfly and not the Iron Butterfly that is the slaver. No S.W.A.T. commander wants to be the guy that shot up a doggy day care center.

Nah, they do it every day and nothing ever happens to them.

"swat shoot dog" returns 689,000 results on google. There are 46,000 videos. Heck, wrong address

You get 444,000 results for "swat wrong address shot".

kzt wrote:

pappilon wrote:Even so one would like to verify that it is the Golden Butterfly and not the Iron Butterfly that is the slaver. No S.W.A.T. commander wants to be the guy that shot up a doggy day care center.

Nah, they do it every day and nothing ever happens to them.

"swat shoot dog" returns 689,000 results on google. There are 46,000 videos. Heck, wrong address

You get 444,000 results for "swat wrong address shot".

America has gotten really screwed up when it comes to the military and the police.

The politicians want the military to go overseas and act like a police force yet the LEO's back home want to gear up like they are going on patrol in the Helmand Province to direct traffic at a local high school football game.

jtg452 wrote:

kzt wrote:Even so one would like to verify that it is the Golden Butterfly and not the Iron Butterfly that is the slaver. No S.W.A.T. commander wants to be the guy that shot up a doggy day care center.

...
America has gotten really screwed up when it comes to the military and the police.

The politicians want the military to go overseas and act like a police force yet the LEO's back home want to gear up like they are going on patrol in the Helmand Province to direct traffic at a local high school football game.

It seems to have gone viral since Iraq - at least, when I lived in St Paul Mn, I don't remember seeing officers gussied up in military surplus.

Which, incidentally, breaks Sir Robert Peel's first rule of civilian policing - Never look like the army. The British Police wear body armour, and carry far more guns than they ever used to, but everything is still in police blue.

Going back to the OP, it seems that it is lawful to impersonate a civilian (or base) for the purpose of capturing slavers and/or pirates. At least, we're twenty odd books in, and no one has ever suggested it's not legal.

At the very least no one cares if you impersonate civilians to screw over slavers/pirates.

Although, IIRC, Parmley Station was also hosting Ballroom, which would be hilariously illegal.

quite possibly a cat wrote:At the very least no one cares if you impersonate civilians to screw over slavers/pirates.

Although, IIRC, Parmley Station was also hosting Ballroom, which would be hilariously illegal.

No, Parmley Station was hosting the forces of Torch. Some of whom may have also been Ballroom... but of course, they would have been shocked, shocked to discover that.

saber964 wrote:False flag operations are still used in multiple countries. The most prevalent usage was during the age of sail. But was used several times by both sides as late as WWII. The German Navy during WWII used it instinctively with their HSK's (Commerce Disruption Cruiser) like Kormaran and Atlantis. The RN also used it. The most notable was HMS Campbelltown in the raid on St. Nazarene France to destroy the Normandie dock.

I believe the "laws of war" permit warships to disguise themselves (either as civilian ships or the warships of non-beligerants) up to and including flying false flags provided that the false flag is lowered and the real flag is raised before opening fire?