Info found on Mesa

kzt wrote:

drinksmuchcoffee wrote:What exactly are the terms of the Eridani Edict? I know that a planetary population which does not surrender can be subject to kinetic bombardment until it does surrender or the planet is a cueball and that apparently does not violate the Edict. It seems unclear if using a weapon of mass destruction in an civil war would also be a violation. I get some sense that the practical interpretation of the edict seems to be that anything the SLN does is okay.

It's very extensively explained by David in a series of posts, several are linked below. Basically it's a trigger in SL constitution that the SL will go to war and destroy any star nation that uses weapons of mass destruction (any sort of WDM, not just from space) against a civilian population except under certain limited conditions. Those conditions are explained below in reasonable detail in Expanding upon the Eridani Edict, and Green Pines meets NONE of them:

First- The Edict and Interstellar Law
"Now, there's been some discussion of the Eridani Edict as an element of interstellar law. That is an incorrect interpretation of what the Eridani Edict is. The Edict represents a unilateral declaration by the Solarian League of what it will do to anyone who violates the Edict's provisions. It's never been cited as a "law." In fact, in some ways, it could be taken as the very antithesis of interstellar law as a consensual body of agreements, because the League has, in effect, said that it doesn't care what anyone else thinks about this specific point. The Solarian League Navy is the galaxy's 800-kilo gorilla, and it will rip the head off of anyone who violates the Edict. That's it, end of discussion, end of debate. And, if you will note, in effect the Edict depends not upon any appeal to the sanctity of interstellar law but rather upon the raw, brute power of reprisal. "If you carry out an attack prohibited by the Eridani Edict, we will destroy you."

Source of the Eridani Edict
Expanding upon the Eridani Edict
The Alignment and the Eridani Edict
Masada and the Eridani Edict

Weber wrote:The Solarian position is that they are not in the business, Edict or no Edict, of trying to play moral policeman. That is, it isn't their job to go around reversing injustices after the fact; it is their job to deter future injustices. Or, specifically, one particular type of injustice having to do with planetary bombardment.

kzt wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:
The SL is already at war with Manticore and Republic of Haven.

No, it’s not. For the SL to be at war requires the assembly declare war, without any vetoes. So far that hasn’t worked. Or someone commits an edict violation, which bypasses all the hot air and enables all the war powers. Which starts with conscripting every SL SDF. I have no idea where it ends, but an obvious element would be allowing deficit spending for the duration of the war. And the SL has a huge amount of top of the line manufacturing capabilities that currently are not producing military gear. Like say 99% are not producing military gear.

Brigade XO wrote: [Mega-snip]

Ok, then while the SL has NOT FORMALLY declared war on Manticore or Haven, it has done the practical equivalent at least in terms of having sent Fillerta to capture the Manticore Home System with 300+ SD and their escorts.
Perhaps this is only "crushing uppity neobarbs" but it sure has the feel of a war though undeclared by the SL.

So now we are deep in the semantics and legal discussion about when a state of war exists. Which is exactly one of the problems with what the SL is doing to Beowulf when Beowulf told the SLN task force couldn't force entry through the Sigma Draconis terminus--there WAS NO DECLARATION OF WAR, the SLN couldn't leagaly (under the SL's own rules) require the BSDF to stand aside nor require the terminus control to provide clearance and assistance to tranist to the MWJ. The SLN (and the SL) is really pissed because Beowulf used the SL' own rules/laws against it and the SL just can't abide not being able to do whatever it wants including ignoring it's own laws & regulations. Because the BSDF was enforcing it's local sovereignty, the SL brands them traitors and is mounting military and propaganda campaigns against them.

On the other hand Manticore HAS formally declired war on the SL because Filerta's SLN fleet attacked the Manticore Home System. And Haven has joined them. Exactly how many other Star Nations have also formally joined in declaring war on the SL is a different question.

I suppose that if Filerta had been successful, it would have been termed a punitive action against an uncivilized system in retaliation for defending itself or for being able to stand up to the SL's usual arrogant behavior and taking what it wants?

Not a WAR! Heavens no, NEVER A WAR. The great and just SL would never do such a thing....they were just dealing with a local matter of piracy and military assaults on peacefull systems who only wanted to trade with SL member systems.

quite possibly a cat wrote:I very much doubt the Solarian Constitution is written such that someone can declare war on the Solarian League, but somehow not give the Solarian League their war powers.

quite possibly a cat wrote:I very much doubt the Solarian Constitution is written such that someone can declare war on the Solarian League, but somehow not give the Solarian League their war powers.

kzt wrote:Oh, it is. That's the whole point. The SL, as a whole, still considers the SKM and RH to be just another couple of neobarbs who are, at most, an annoyance to be dealt with. The assumption that the military might of the SL is overwhelming was true for a millennium, the fact that it stopped being so has not been grasped outside of a rather small number of SL senior leaders and a widening group of SLN officers.

pappilon wrote:I can't make that assumption; can't make the leap from we're the only [therefore the biggest,baddest] polity in The 'Verse, but just in case some neobarb single system decides to declare war on us: "ARTICLE 5,498 Should war be declared on us by some uppity neobarbs with delusions of ... whatever, a state of war will automatically exist and no formal declaration will be required for the MOD to squash the uppity bug y whatever means necessary."

Weird Harold wrote:

pappilon wrote:I can't make that assumption; can't make the leap from we're the only [therefore the biggest,baddest] polity in The 'Verse, but just in case some neobarb single system decides to declare war on us: "ARTICLE 5,498 Should war be declared on us by some uppity neobarbs with delusions of ... whatever, a state of war will automatically exist and no formal declaration will be required for the MOD to squash the uppity bug y whatever means necessary."

Textev says that "article five" (IIRC) allows immediate defensive action by the SLN, up to and including offensive action in response to provocation. Adm Rajampet used it as justification for "Raging Justice" and I believe Adm Kingsford is using it as justification for his "commerce raiding" strategy.

There are a couple of discussions on what the League is and is not permitted without a formal declaration of war by the Star Assembly.

pappilon wrote:Er...uh ...wait! The SL needs a pretext? Oh, you mean impetus for a "formal declaration of war". Like having in-hand declarations of war against it by the second and third largest navies in The 'Verse isn't pretext/impetus for a unanimous declaration. Especially after the repeated demonstrations that the vaunted SLN is the 4th or possibly 5th most powerful navy.

pappilon wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:I very much doubt the Solarian Constitution is written such that someone can declare war on the Solarian League, but somehow not give the Solarian League their war powers.

I can't make that assumption; can't make the leap from we're the only [therefore the biggest,baddest] polity in The 'Verse, but just in case some neobarb single system decides to declare war on us: "ARTICLE 5,498 Should war be declared on us by some uppity neobarbs with delusions of ... whatever, a state of war will automatically exist and no formal declaration will be required for the MOD to squash the uppity bug y whatever means necessary."