Info found on Mesa

kzt wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Yet thousands died in revolts all through the Verge. As usual, those in power decide what is a violation or not.

Had Manticore done what the OFS fleet did, it would probably be considered a violation. But in Solarian courts, wiping out most of the population by their own people is no biggie.

Note the bit about star nations. SL members are very protective of their rights and privileges, which include internal policing using force perhaps a bit over enthusiastically. You will note how their didn’t seem to ever be any press around anyhow, despite the legality. It might just get reported anyhow, and that might look bad. But luckily the vast mass of SL news media is as well trained as ours in in not reporting inconvenient truths that peons don’t deserve to know.

But Torch does in fact claim to be a star nation last I checked. Which means that if they claim the attack the SL is automatically at war with them. No vote, just automatic declaration of war per the SL constitution. Hmm, that might be mighty convenient for the SLN, since that allows them to conscript all those SDFs. Plus whatever the various war power rules can be twisted to allow.

It also would be sort of bad PR for torch. To put it mildly.

No way Torch gets blamed. People have a tendency to believe confessions which fit reasonably with the known facts. Which means Victor and Anton can confess and point the finger at the other plausible suspects: Manticore and Haven. And they almost certainly will if their loved ones are in danger.

Also the Solarian League actually supports the EEE. Its the one thing they agree on. It probably won't be enough to hold the Solarian League together after the stunts the Mandarins pull, but it might help unite ex-sollies into a new alliance or star nation. Like some sort of Renaissance.

quite possibly a cat wrote:No way Torch gets blamed. People have a tendency to believe confessions which fit reasonably with the known facts. Which means Victor and Anton can confess and point the finger at the other plausible suspects: Manticore and Haven. And they almost certainly will if their loved ones are in danger.

Also the Solarian League actually supports the EEE. Its the one thing they agree on. It probably won't be enough to hold the Solarian League together after the stunts the Mandarins pull, but it might help unite ex-sollies into a new alliance or star nation. Like some sort of Renaissance.

We do have the upcoming "Mayan Crisis", which assumedly ends (or begins) with Maya taking t's ball and going home. It could very well be that the trigger for the Crisis is blaming Torch for an EE violation and the local SLN FF detachment (Maya) refuses to assist in the purge and rebels to defend Torch, as does the Mayan Cluster in general.

For the SL, it's all about to come apart, but the powers that be are still chugging along at full speed as they always have - ignorant of the icebergs in their path. The question is which berg is the killer - the scariest parts are hidden under water and never seen, so the obvious point of contention - Beowulf - may not be the debilitating blow.

Whether or not Manticore is actually in violation of the Eridani Edict surely the SL will be able to use its apparent violation as a pretext for war with the SEM/Grand Alliance. And that was probably part of the MA's plan all along - or at least an incidental goal with which they won't be displeased.

Peregrinator wrote:Whether or not Manticore is actually in violation of the Eridani Edict surely the SL will be able to use its apparent violation as a pretext for war with the SEM/Grand Alliance. And that was probably part of the MA's plan all along - or at least an incidental goal with which they won't be displeased.

Er...uh ...wait! The SL needs a pretext? Oh, you mean impetus for a "formal declaration of war". Like having in-hand declarations of war against it by the second and third largest navies in The 'Verse isn't pretext/impetus for a unanimous declaration. Especially after the repeated demonstrations that the vaunted SLN is the 4th or possibly 5th most powerful navy.

All that Mesa thing was is [whichever clone] Detweiller running to the intake side of the air impeller dropping pants and defecating. I mean jusy for grins and giggles as a misguided gesture to "make the deaths of do many onioneers mean something.

Peregrinator wrote:Whether or not Manticore is actually in violation of the Eridani Edict surely the SL will be able to use its apparent violation as a pretext for war with the SEM/Grand Alliance. And that was probably part of the MA's plan all along - or at least an incidental goal with which they won't be displeased.

The point is, of course, that Manticore was NOT in violation of the EE when Z and C were there the first time. It was done by others who were already on planet. And there are ways to test radiation that could prove that. WE have that now.

The accusation from O'Hanrahan might go further because of her reputation. But I have a feeling a lot of things are going to happen and that might get lost in the shuffle.

After all, the League and the Grand Alliance are already at war. Filareta tried to take over Manticore. With both Henke and Tourville there, the Alliance will not be split.

And since this is the last book in the arc, there will be some resolution...clearly a temporary one but that will happen.

ldwechsler wrote:The point is, of course, that Manticore was NOT in violation of the EE when Z and C were there the first time. It was done by others who were already on planet. And there are ways to test radiation that could prove that. WE have that now.

'Someone' suggested that Torch claim it. I simply pointed out a few minor drawbacks to that plan. But it's kind of hard to be claiming your city on the hill status when the world knows you are letting post 9/11 Osama Bin Laden walk about freely because "his heart was in the right place".

ldwechsler wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:Whether or not Manticore is actually in violation of the Eridani Edict surely the SL will be able to use its apparent violation as a pretext for war with the SEM/Grand Alliance. And that was probably part of the MA's plan all along - or at least an incidental goal with which they won't be displeased.

The point is, of course, that Manticore was NOT in violation of the EE when Z and C were there the first time. It was done by others who were already on planet. And there are ways to test radiation that could prove that. WE have that now.

That was a fusion weapon. Fission is basically not used in Honorverse. It got rolled over by fusion. Fission is a thing neobarbs use. And fusion bombs probably use standardized mixtures, so its probably not possible to trace to a specific source. The bomb may not have even been built on Mesa. Also even if the materials were technically on planet, the expertise came off-planet. Nor would it matter even if they could trace the bomb's origin to Mesa. I'm pretty sure its still an EEE violation if you use ships you captured from the enemy for example.

This sourcing of weapons does remind me of something, and it IS info they will find on Mesa: There was a short scene in one of the books were some Mesan police got murdered. By weapons only produced in Manticore, and only sold to the Manticorian military. I can imagine O'Hanrahan getting a "tip" about that. I can also see Henke having the brilliant idea to put on an actual demonstration for reporters where they "disprove" this inane assertion. Which would go over swimmingly right up until the Manty lab tech says "Exact same result as the Mesans."

kzt wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Yet thousands died in revolts all through the Verge. As usual, those in power decide what is a violation or not.

Had Manticore done what the OFS fleet did, it would probably be considered a violation. But in Solarian courts, wiping out most of the population by their own people is no biggie.

Note the bit about star nations. SL members are very protective of their rights and privileges, which include internal policing using force perhaps a bit over enthusiastically. You will note how their didn’t seem to ever be any press around anyhow, despite the legality. It might just get reported anyhow, and that might look bad. But luckily the vast mass of SL news media is as well trained as ours in in not reporting inconvenient truths that peons don’t deserve to know.

But Torch does in fact claim to be a star nation last I checked. Which means that if they claim the attack the SL is automatically at war with them. No vote, just automatic declaration of war per the SL constitution. Hmm, that might be mighty convenient for the SLN, since that allows them to conscript all those SDFs. Plus whatever the various war power rules can be twisted to allow.

It also would be sort of bad PR for torch. To put it mildly.

Except for 2 points, which completely puncture your argument (pun intended).

1) Torch has declared war on Manpower and Mesa.
2) Mesa is not a member of the Solarian League.

Therefore, the Solarian League is not automatically at war with Torch.

kzt wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:The point is, of course, that Manticore was NOT in violation of the EE when Z and C were there the first time. It was done by others who were already on planet. And there are ways to test radiation that could prove that. WE have that now.

'Someone' suggested that Torch claim it. I simply pointed out a few minor drawbacks to that plan. But it's kind of hard to be claiming your city on the hill status when the world knows you are letting post 9/11 Osama Bin Laden walk about freely because "his heart was in the right place".

Of course, Osama bin Laden did set up the 9/11 thing. That Zilwicki and Cachat did not seems not to be important now.

You could as easily blame the President of Egypt or perhaps even better the King of Saudi Arabia with more accuracy than either Zilwicki or Cachat.

The fact that Mesa claims they did it hardly matters. And note that probably more people were killed on assorted "protectorate" planets than died on Mesa.

Vince wrote:Except for 2 points, which completely puncture your argument (pun intended).

1) Torch has declared war on Manpower and Mesa.
2) Mesa is not a member of the Solarian League.

Therefore, the Solarian League is not automatically at war with Torch.

You might read that part I quoted from David about the edict.

The SL has NO interest in whether you or your target are or are not a member of the SL or at war or not. If you violate the edict, which is explained at great length by David, the SL is at war with you. There is no vote. There is no way to veto it.