Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?

feyhunde wrote:

Theemile wrote:
The Dreadnaughts are just as important as the SDs. The 2 were built simultaneously. Before the buildup, there were only the 11 Ad Astras DNs and 3 Manticore SDs. The buildup kicked off with King Rodger building the 21 Royal Wintons and the 7 Samothraces.

The Samothraces pre-date King Roger, being started 13 years before Roger became King Roger. They were, along with the Royal Wintons both laid down starting in 1844 and were the first wallers built in ~100 years.

The real King Roger build up SDs are the King William class which were the first SDs to go into a full series production. The Victory class seems to be between the King Williams and the Samothraces.

As to DN's, we have the Royal Wintons, Gladiators and Majestic class Dreadnoughts. The Royal Wintons were pre-laser head. The Gladiators were introduced in the 1880s with a design change to heavier missile throw resulting in the Majestics being considered a separate class as of 1888.

So if Beowulf has any Manty ships, they'd more likely be Royal Wintons. And its unlikely that a restarted and untested shipyard's wallers would be attractive to a core world. The Gladiators and Majestics were only started during the prelude to war, and they would have been hoarded up until the new SD construction caught up.

The tonnage of Majestic and Gryphon class DNs is about the same as the Scientist and Vega Class SDs. But I doubt the RMN would consider an export of those ships to be SDs. Further, the Majestics would not be considered a great pre-war design. Experience shows they were rather fragile due to the changes from the Gryphon class focus on beam weapons to their missile layout.

Ok, let's get things correct...

Manticore's Homegrown DNs

Class Entered # Mass (tons)
Ad Astra 1632 11 3,895,900
Royal Winton 1846 21 5,814,750
Gladiator 1868 34 6,846,000
Majestic 1896 40 6,750,500
Bellerophon 1900 38 6,985,250

Manticore's home grown SDs

Class Entered # Mass (tons)
Manticore 1742 3 6,515,500
Samothrace 1848 7 7,253,750
King William 1877 25 7,170,750
Anduril 1889 14 7,506,000
Victory 1892 36 7,781,250
Sphinx 1895 67 8,207,000
Gryphon 1900 163 8,339,000

These details are from HoS. Also in Hos is the story of the King Rodger buildup and him arguing for more Ships of the Royal Winton and Samothrace classes. the original plans were for 7 Royal Wintons and 3 Samothraces. Parliment wanted to cut the Samothrace build to 1. The saying went that King Roger compromised on 7. The plans might have been started before he got the crown, but their number was part of the buildup.

The SLN Scientist class is stated to be ~6.8 Mtons, placing the last 3 modern RMN Dreadnaught classes in it's size range.

Theemile wrote:[

Ok, let's get things correct...

Manticore's Homegrown DNs

Class Entered # Mass (tons)
Ad Astra 1632 11 3,895,900
Royal Winton 1846 21 5,814,750
Gladiator 1868 34 6,846,000
Majestic 1896 40 6,750,500
Bellerophon 1900 38 6,985,250

Manticore's home grown SDs

Class Entered # Mass (tons)
Manticore 1742 3 6,515,500
Samothrace 1848 7 7,253,750
King William 1877 25 7,170,750
Anduril 1889 14 7,506,000
Victory 1892 36 7,781,250
Sphinx 1895 67 8,207,000
Gryphon 1900 163 8,339,000

These details are from HoS. Also in Hos is the story of the King Rodger buildup and him arguing for more Ships of the Royal Winton and Samothrace classes. the original plans were for 7 Royal Wintons and 3 Samothraces. Parliment wanted to cut the Samothrace build to 1. The saying went that King Roger compromised on 7. The plans might have been started before he got the crown, but their number was part of the buildup.

The SLN Scientist class is stated to be ~6.8 Mtons, placing the last 3 modern RMN Dreadnaught classes in it's size range.

Huh i've seen different dates on the Gladiators and Majestics, pushing them to 1880 and 1886 per the wiki.

feyhunde wrote:

Theemile wrote:These details are from HoS.

Huh i've seen different dates on the Gladiators and Majestics, pushing them to 1880 and 1886 per the wiki.

House of Steel (HoS) is canon, textev. The Honorverse Wiki is not.

Some posts earlier I thought that Beowulf build it´s warships at Manticore, now I changed my opinion and think, they are build at Beowulf itself. Why at Beowulf or one of it´s former colonies and not somewere else in the League? Maybe we should answer another question first:

"How old is the Beowulf Navy itself?"

If I remember correct, then is Beowulf one of the oldest colonies outside of the Sol system, so the Navy could be founded at any time in the past. But there are some point´s that maybe support the decision to found a navy or to give an existing navy a higher priority.

First: The leave of Albrecht Detweiler to Mesa! Detweiler leaves Beowulf in conflict. Nobody knows if that could be end in an armed conflict started from Mesa, so it would be smart to prepare yourself if they do.

Second: The whormhole junction at Manticore. We saw that forces from outside try to get control about the junction - in the far and also in the younger past. That´s also a point to protect your people and your economic interests at Beowulf.

So, I think they build their ships at Beowulf, because they don´t wanted that Mesa get their hands on it in building stage, because they are builded somewhere else. Could be uncomfortable if you try to push an Mesa invading force back and your reactors blow up by sabotage at the building shipyard.

Because of the trouble with Mesa and the importance of the whormhole I think that the Beowulf Navy has a much higher priority at the Beowulf goverment than the solarian navy at the silarian goverment.

How good are the ships of the Beowulf Navy? Not even Manticore noticed the expansion of Heaven before the war started. Also, Manticore survived the start of the war and could fight back, so Beowulf get an impression how a modern war was fight. There is a good chance that Beowulf modernize their navy before or at the war between Manticore and Heaven. Question is: Could they realize that moderisation quick enough? Are all Beowulf ships of the same class as the solarian navy arrives at Beowulf?

Maldorian wrote:"How old is the Beowulf Navy itself?"

The Beowulf Navy (BSDF) is probably older than the Solarian League. Its 36 SDs are probably the same age and general design as the SLN's Scientist or Vega class. Odds are they're all older than 20 years, (the start of the Haven-Manticore war,) but not much older than the Dusquene(sp?) Plan that turned the Legislaturalist Regime into Conquistadores.

Haven was a known threat long before King Roger's build-up and Project GRAM. That's the reason that Manticore survived the "Short Victorious War" and eventually defeated Haven.

I doubt that Mesa figured into the size or composition of the BSDF. Mesa, or more precisely Manpower Inc, was definitely a driving force behind the Biological Survey Corp's development into an elite special forces group, But Beowulf didn't know of the MAlign untl very recently (after Victor and Anton returned with Dr Simoes) so countering the MAlign wouldn't have been any factor in Naval construction policy.

I doubt that Mesa figured into the size or composition of the BSDF. Mesa, or more precisely Manpower Inc, was definitely a driving force behind the Biological Survey Corp's development into an elite special forces group, But Beowulf didn't know of the MAlign untl very recently (after Victor and Anton returned with Dr Simoes) so countering the MAlign wouldn't have been any factor in Naval construction policy.

If you haven´t any defense in your system, then a mercanerie force would be enough to harm your planet and of course, you can hide the contractor.

With other words: A fleet make it for an opponent very expensive to harm you by direct force.

Maldorian wrote:

I doubt that Mesa figured into the size or composition of the BSDF. ...

If you haven´t any defense in your system, then a mercanerie force would be enough to harm your planet and of course, you can hide the contractor....

True, but that doesn't mean Beowulf built its SDF to protect itself from Mesa. Beowulf likely had a substantial Navy before the Solarian League or Mesa existed. They would have needed a Navy to protect themselves when they went to the rescue of Earth from the effects of "The Final War" and that was all long before Leonard Detweiler and friends stomped off in a huff over the Beowulf Code to colonize Mesa.

Before the SL or SLN existed, Beowulf likely had a Navy to protect commerce and its daughter coloniesand saw no reason to renounce those commitments when the Solarian League was formed and created the SLN.

Weird Harold wrote:Before the SL or SLN existed, Beowulf likely had a Navy to protect commerce and its daughter coloniesand saw no reason to renounce those commitments when the Solarian League was formed and created the SLN.

I haven’t double checked the dates, but assuming the timeline on the wiki is right the formation of the League predated the reactionless impeller drive, and also warshawski detectors (or later sails).

With bassard ramjets, access to only the Alpha bands, and no ability to detect grab waves the League predated the safe and routine transit of hyperspace. I don’t think you can build an effective navy when you arrive in the target system nearly out of fuel and at a virtual standstill. (And maybe 5% of ship mass devoted to weapons, armor, or defenses)

I believe it was the combination of Warshawski detectors and sails that were said to make interstellar war possible.

Maldorian wrote:
I doubt that Mesa figured into the size or composition of the BSDF. ...


If you haven´t any defense in your system, then a mercanerie force would be enough to harm your planet and of course, you can hide the contractor....


True, but that doesn't mean Beowulf built its SDF to protect itself from Mesa. Beowulf likely had a substantial Navy before the Solarian League or Mesa existed. They would have needed a Navy to protect themselves when they went to the rescue of Earth from the effects of "The Final War" and that was all long before Leonard Detweiler and friends stomped off in a huff over the Beowulf Code to colonize Mesa.

Before the SL or SLN existed, Beowulf likely had a Navy to protect commerce and its daughter coloniesand saw no reason to renounce those commitments when the Solarian League was formed and created the SLN.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

Like I said: I doesn´t know the real age of the Beowulf navy, so thanks for the information.

But like I said: Even if the navy is that old, Detweiler and Heaven increase the priority of the navy. We all saw what happen to the solarian navy because nobody really care about it. So like some others thought: Beowulf´s ships maybe not the newest, but newer more up to date as the junk from the solarians.

After reading the posts and thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that the Beowulf SD's where built either in Beowulf itself to Solarian Navy designs or purchased from a builder who built them in another core world for the Solarian Navy.

In being a member of the Solarian League, this seems to make the most sense to me. However, since Solarian Navy ship designs have been the "best" in their opinion, for so long, I don't think that the majority of the Beowulf SD's are very new.

It seems that if the Beowulf SDF holds the same type of unit organization as seems to be common there are 4 squadrons worth of SD's with 4 spares to allow for refits, therefore it would seem likely that they where purchased over a period of time, along with an appropriate screening element of course.