Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?

Theemile wrote:

Maldorian wrote:Looks like one of the most important questions about the Beowulf fleet is his age.

Another question is the place they are build.

Manticore and Beowulf are connected by a whormhole, so the are only hours traveltime away. Manticore had an very big shipyard. Do you really think another shipyard could survive with such a big competitor so close?

I think it is possible that the Beowulf superdreadnoughts are build at Manticore before the war. We all know that the manticorian Navy is an very active navy because of their anti pirate patrols in Silesia. The solarian Battlefleet on the other hand was only sitting at their bases and doing nothing. So, if the Bewuld ships were buid at Manticore before the war, they could be better than the solarian ships because of experience in duty.

Unless they are rather new ships, the Manties did not build them. In the HoS and Jayne's Errata, a large point was made about the difficulties producing the Royal Winton, Samothrace and King William classes - the first classes built of the buildup. Being over 75 years since the last SD was built, Manticore literally had to build the infrastructure and support structure for building Wallers, and specifically had no experience (and lots of issues) in mass production of such complex ships.

Now, Beowulf has been a production powerhouse since before the creation of the Star League. Chances are higher that they produced their ships than the Manties did. Also of note - David's comment I am currently using as my sig. Namely that updating Beowulf wallers to Manty technology would be as difficult as the SLN ships. While not a smoking gun - it shows that their ships are considerabley behind the curve.

I agree, Beowulf did not buy SD's from Manticore. Until the build up under King Roger, the Kingdom didn't have the experience or history.

If we look back at the pre-wormhole era, the SKM had only part of the tools and abilities to build ships. The first and second Nikes were Solarian built. It's only after the Womrhole era began that Manticore really started building local ships (although they were using a mixture of local and import parts for stuff like impellars and fusion plants at the dawn of the wormhole era).

Likely Beowulf supplied at least some of those parts, as it was on Beowulf the initial breakthrus for hyper and impellars happened. Beowulf is also probably the source of the SKM's ship building experience once the wormhole era began and commerce protection became a big issue.

Also per David "I don't recall ever having said anything anywhere in the book to suggest that Beowulf, which was on the absolute cutting-edge of hyper physics when little things like the impeller drive and the Warshawski sail were being invented, has somehow magically become a star system which devotes its time solely to medicine and genetic research"


But remember, commerce protection was the big issue. The RMN, before King Roger, was a small homefleet and a much larger fleet of small vessels. Akin almost to the SLN and the Battle Fleet/Frontier Fleet differences.

The first SD was the HMS Manticore, and was built in 1742 as the lead of 3 SDs. The Samothrace class wasn't built until 1844, and was only 7 vessels. Somewhere between King Roger and the Samothrace were the Victory class SDs which seem to be a one off. It's only with the King Williams that the SKM really starts building an actual industry for SDs.

It's easy to look at the large fleets pre-build up and think Manticore was this premier shipyard. But Manticore didn't have that many SDs until after King Roger's build up and his death (also when San Martin was annexed). As a result nearly all of the 181 SD's at the start of the first Havenite War were built after 1875. 3 Manticore class, 7 Samothrace class, and a few unknown Victory Class SD's were part of the pre-war SDs. That makes ~175 SD made in ~20 years.

Not only that, but Hemphil has been involved with R&D since at least 1855. Every ship since then has had her touch involved in one way or another. Even the conventional King William class was built for Laser Heads which Hemphil was involved with.

So as we have it, until ~1875-1883, Manticore was building SDs in drips. Beowulf, the traditional home of modern technology, would not have bought from them in this era unless it was a political deal. Which would have been huge, as it would help subsidize the ability for Manticore to build their industry.

After ~1880, Manticore was preparing for a war, using ships that were beginning to depart from Orthodoxy and didn't have spare capacity. Look at the early days of the Manticore Alliance to see how they couldn't get new wallers to places like Grayson, and instead Grayson rebuilt captured peep ships.

So I don't think 1. the Manties were able to really build SD's for export before ~1880, 2. once their industry was rolling they didn't have a large spare capacity, 3. even if they did, they were starting to diverge from orthodoxy in important ways like favoring a heavier missile load than the Scientist class.

Honestly I'm thinking the BSDF probably uses a version of the Vega Class, perhaps with a few more tubes. I'm almost certain they are homemade, and I'm pretty certain Beowulf still does a good business in selling ships.

feyhunde wrote:[
After ~1880, Manticore was preparing for a war, using ships that were beginning to depart from Orthodoxy and didn't have spare capacity. Look at the early days of the Manticore Alliance to see how they couldn't get new wallers to places like Grayson, and instead Grayson rebuilt captured peep ships.

So I don't think 1. the Manties were able to really build SD's for export before ~1880, 2. once their industry was rolling they didn't have a large spare capacity, 3. even if they did, they were starting to diverge from orthodoxy in important ways like favoring a heavier missile load than the Scientist class.

Honestly I'm thinking the BSDF probably uses a version of the Vega Class, perhaps with a few more tubes. I'm almost certain they are homemade, and I'm pretty certain Beowulf still does a good business in selling ships.

People seem to think Beowulf is this tiny backward principality. Note that they were preparing to provide a lot of the missiles and other things that Manticore needed after the Yawata Strike.

Chances are, they are building their own fleet. It almost certainly is not as large as the other nations in the Grand Alliance but it is probably more up to date than the rest of the Solarian League.

With a bit of work, they could get very much tougher.

And they could provide some really good crewmen for the GA navy, ones well educated and trained.

ldwechsler wrote:

feyhunde wrote:[
After ~1880, Manticore was preparing for a war, using ships that were beginning to depart from Orthodoxy and didn't have spare capacity. Look at the early days of the Manticore Alliance to see how they couldn't get new wallers to places like Grayson, and instead Grayson rebuilt captured peep ships.

So I don't think 1. the Manties were able to really build SD's for export before ~1880, 2. once their industry was rolling they didn't have a large spare capacity, 3. even if they did, they were starting to diverge from orthodoxy in important ways like favoring a heavier missile load than the Scientist class.

Honestly I'm thinking the BSDF probably uses a version of the Vega Class, perhaps with a few more tubes. I'm almost certain they are homemade, and I'm pretty certain Beowulf still does a good business in selling ships.

People seem to think Beowulf is this tiny backward principality. Note that they were preparing to provide a lot of the missiles and other things that Manticore needed after the Yawata Strike.

Chances are, they are building their own fleet. It almost certainly is not as large as the other nations in the Grand Alliance but it is probably more up to date than the rest of the Solarian League.

With a bit of work, they could get very much tougher.

And they could provide some really good crewmen for the GA navy, ones well educated and trained.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Beowulf is one of the traditional ship building hubs of the SL. Up until the pre-war build up, Beowulf probably was the largest shipyard in human space. Plenty of other core systems for competition, especially those that got SLN contracts, but Beowulf had to do ok.

You guys are overlooking somethings, namely that the RMN had a large number of Dreadnuaghts in commission. IIRC 11 Ad Astra class, 24 Royal Winton class, 38 Gladiator class, 40 Majestic class and 38 Bellerophon class. The Ad Astra class was built originally in 1672 and refited in 1872.

saber964 wrote:You guys are overlooking somethings, namely that the RMN had a large number of Dreadnuaghts in commission. IIRC 11 Ad Astra class, 24 Royal Winton class, 38 Gladiator class, 40 Majestic class and 38 Bellerophon class. The Ad Astra class was built originally in 1672 and refited in 1872.

Dreadnought capacity and skill isn't the same as SDs. The SLN has 100+ year old Scientist Class SDs running around in active service. It's was a big enough gap that the King Roger build up had issues, suggesting the DN experience was fully transferable.

Also the point still stands that until ~1880 the SKM built so few SDs that a foreign order would be huge. After 1880, the SKM had to worry about Haven on its doorstep and wouldn't divert SD production to export.

saber964 wrote:You guys are overlooking somethings, namely that the RMN had a large number of Dreadnoughts in commission. IIRC 11 Ad Astra class, 24 Royal Winton class, 38 Gladiator class, 40 Majestic class and 38 Bellerophon class. The Ad Astra class was built originally in 1672 and refited in 1872.

feyhunde wrote:Dreadnought capacity and skill isn't the same as SDs. The SLN has 100+ year old Scientist Class SDs running around in active service. It's was a big enough gap that the King Roger build up had issues, suggesting the DN experience was fully transferable.

Scientist-class SDs are described as "hardly bigger than a Manticoran DN," IIRC. I don't have the stats handy for either type, but one of the reasons SLN SDs are such easy targets is that they are small and under-armored compared to modern SDs or SD(p)s. ("Modern" == Manticoran, Havenite, Grayson, or Anderman. Possibly some others as well, but those four for sure.)

The Original Question having been: where were the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built? The answer is obvious: They were built in the Beowulf Super Dreadnought Factory.

feyhunde wrote:

saber964 wrote:You guys are overlooking somethings, namely that the RMN had a large number of Dreadnuaghts in commission. IIRC 11 Ad Astra class, 24 Royal Winton class, 38 Gladiator class, 40 Majestic class and 38 Bellerophon class. The Ad Astra class was built originally in 1672 and refited in 1872.

Dreadnought capacity and skill isn't the same as SDs. The SLN has 100+ year old Scientist Class SDs running around in active service. It's was a big enough gap that the King Roger build up had issues, suggesting the DN experience was fully transferable.

Also the point still stands that until ~1880 the SKM built so few SDs that a foreign order would be huge. After 1880, the SKM had to worry about Haven on its doorstep and wouldn't divert SD production to export.

The Dreadnaughts are just as important as the SDs. The 2 were built simultaneously. Before the buildup, there were only the 11 Ad Astras DNs and 3 Manticore SDs. The buildup kicked off with King Rodger building the 21 Royal Wintons and the 7 Samothraces.

Theemile wrote:
The Dreadnaughts are just as important as the SDs. The 2 were built simultaneously. Before the buildup, there were only the 11 Ad Astras DNs and 3 Manticore SDs. The buildup kicked off with King Rodger building the 21 Royal Wintons and the 7 Samothraces.

The Samothraces pre-date King Roger, being started 13 years before Roger became King Roger. They were, along with the Royal Wintons both laid down starting in 1844 and were the first wallers built in ~100 years.

The real King Roger build up SDs are the King William class which were the first SDs to go into a full series production. The Victory class seems to be between the King Williams and the Samothraces.

As to DN's, we have the Royal Wintons, Gladiators and Majestic class Dreadnoughts. The Royal Wintons were pre-laser head. The Gladiators were introduced in the 1880s with a design change to heavier missile throw resulting in the Majestics being considered a separate class as of 1888.

So if Beowulf has any Manty ships, they'd more likely be Royal Wintons. And its unlikely that a restarted and untested shipyard's wallers would be attractive to a core world. The Gladiators and Majestics were only started during the prelude to war, and they would have been hoarded up until the new SD construction caught up.

The tonnage of Majestic and Gryphon class DNs is about the same as the Scientist and Vega Class SDs. But I doubt the RMN would consider an export of those ships to be SDs. Further, the Majestics would not be considered a great pre-war design. Experience shows they were rather fragile due to the changes from the Gryphon class focus on beam weapons to their missile layout.

feyhunde wrote:

Theemile wrote:
The Dreadnaughts are just as important as the SDs. The 2 were built simultaneously. Before the buildup, there were only the 11 Ad Astras DNs and 3 Manticore SDs. The buildup kicked off with King Rodger building the 21 Royal Wintons and the 7 Samothraces.

The Samothraces pre-date King Roger, being started 13 years before Roger became King Roger. They were, along with the Royal Wintons both laid down starting in 1844 and were the first wallers built in ~100 years.

The real King Roger build up SDs are the King William class which were the first SDs to go into a full series production. The Victory class seems to be between the King Williams and the Samothraces.

As to DN's, we have the Royal Wintons, Gladiators and Majestic class Dreadnoughts. The Royal Wintons were pre-laser head. The Gladiators were introduced in the 1880s with a design change to heavier missile throw resulting in the Majestics being considered a separate class as of 1888.

So if Beowulf has any Manty ships, they'd more likely be Royal Wintons. And its unlikely that a restarted and untested shipyard's wallers would be attractive to a core world. The Gladiators and Majestics were only started during the prelude to war, and they would have been hoarded up until the new SD construction caught up.

The tonnage of Majestic and Gryphon class DNs is about the same as the Scientist and Vega Class SDs. But I doubt the RMN would consider an export of those ships to be SDs. Further, the Majestics would not be considered a great pre-war design. Experience shows they were rather fragile due to the changes from the Gryphon class focus on beam weapons to their missile layout.

Class Entered Production Mass (tons)
Ad Astra 1632 11 3,895,900
Royal Winton 1846 21 5,814,750
Gladiator 1868 34 6,846,000
Majestic 1896 40 6,750,500
Bellerophon 1900 38 6,985,250


Manticore 1742 3 6,515,500
Samothrace 1848 7 7,253,750
King William 1877 25 7,170,750
Anduril 1889 14 7,506,000
Victory 1892 36 7,781,250
Sphinx 1895 67 8,207,000
Gryphon 1900 163 8,339,000