Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victory]

saber964 wrote:Honor has spent most of her career in space. Except for professional development schools like ATC and PCO and probably NWC. She's spent probably 90% of her career in space. Her longest stint dirtside was when Janacek benched her to the academy.

First Honor's career is probably, shall we say atypical, because assignments to staff commands are often boring reading. But also we skipped a decade or two, pretty much from midshipman to captain, so she presumably went through some of the obligatory peacetime check off the boxes career development ground or station assignments during that phase of her service -- before being allowed to command the LAC she had before attending the ATC.

Jonathan_S wrote:

saber964 wrote:Honor has spent most of her career in space. Except for professional development schools like ATC and PCO and probably NWC. She's spent probably 90% of her career in space. Her longest stint dirtside was when Janacek benched her to the academy.

First Honor's career is probably, shall we say atypical, because assignments to staff commands are often boring reading. But also we skipped a decade or two, pretty much from midshipman to captain, so she presumably went through some of the obligatory peacetime check off the boxes career development ground or station assignments during that phase of her service -- before being allowed to command the LAC she had before attending the ATC.

Minor nit - Honor was CO of the Destroyer HMS Hawkwing before attending the ATC. And when do you think she had time for a dirtside-job? Beside her task as CO of HMS Hawkwing, she was TO of a SD - HMS Manticore, if memory serves - she was XO of a CA (the Broadsword, iIrc, during the time of the Attica-avalanche) and she was CO of a LAC without the benefit of a name (not in this order, but at all). That's 4 challenging tasks and should be more than enough assignments to cover the years after her midshipwomen-cruise; don't you think?

Eagleeye wrote:Minor nit - Honor was CO of the Destroyer HMS Hawkwing before attending the ATC. And when do you think she had time for a dirtside-job? Beside her task as CO of HMS Hawkwing, she was TO of a SD - HMS Manticore, if memory serves - she was XO of a CA (the Broadsword, iIrc, during the time of the Attica-avalanche) and she was CO of a LAC without the benefit of a name (not in this order, but at all). That's 4 challenging tasks and should be more than enough assignments to cover the years after her midshipwomen-cruise; don't you think?

Nope. She commanded the LAC before attending "commanding officer's course" after which she got Hawkwing; but in OBS she's pulled out of ATC graduation ceremony and given Fearless (and elsewhere it's mentioned how rare it was for her to get a hyper capable command prior to ATC).

Here's a relevant quote from OBS

On Basilisk Station wrote:twenty-five T-years—since that first exciting, terrifying day on the Saganami campus. Two and a half years of Academy classes and running till she dropped. Four years working her way without patronage or court interest from ensign to lieutenant. Eleven months as sailing master aboard the frigate Osprey, and then her first command, a dinky little intrasystem LAC. It had massed barely ten thousand tons, with only a hull number and not even the dignity of a name, but God how she'd loved that tiny ship! Then more time as executive officer, a turn as tactical officer on a massive superdreadnought. And then—finally!—the coveted commanding officer's course after eleven grueling years. She'd thought she'd died and gone to heaven when they gave her Hawkwing,

Then we know she's sent back to ATC and given Fearless.

Still that plus the other known items you mentioned, doesn't seem enough postings to fill an 11 T-year period between graduation and Hawkwing. I somehow doubt she went directly from Lt commanding a LAC to (presumably a Lieutenant Commander) a ship's XO [that was McKeon's rank as XO on Fearless].


But I guess it's possible that RFC skipped any dirtside/stationside assignments (other than the various necessary courses) for Honor prior to the series. But I think that'd make her even less typical of a example of an RMN career.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:Minor nit - Honor was CO of the Destroyer HMS Hawkwing before attending the ATC. And when do you think she had time for a dirtside-job? Beside her task as CO of HMS Hawkwing, she was TO of a SD - HMS Manticore, if memory serves - she was XO of a CA (the Broadsword, iIrc, during the time of the Attica-avalanche) and she was CO of a LAC without the benefit of a name (not in this order, but at all). That's 4 challenging tasks and should be more than enough assignments to cover the years after her midshipwomen-cruise; don't you think?

Nope. She commanded the LAC before attending "commanding officer's course" after which she got Hawkwing; but in OBS she's pulled out of ATC graduation ceremony and given Fearless (and elsewhere it's mentioned how rare it was for her to get a hyper capable command prior to ATC).

Here's a relevant quote from OBS

On Basilisk Station wrote:twenty-five T-years—since that first exciting, terrifying day on the Saganami campus. Two and a half years of Academy classes and running till she dropped. Four years working her way without patronage or court interest from ensign to lieutenant. Eleven months as sailing master aboard the frigate Osprey, and then her first command, a dinky little intrasystem LAC. It had massed barely ten thousand tons, with only a hull number and not even the dignity of a name, but God how she'd loved that tiny ship! Then more time as executive officer, a turn as tactical officer on a massive superdreadnought. And then—finally!—the coveted commanding officer's course after eleven grueling years. She'd thought she'd died and gone to heaven when they gave her Hawkwing,

Then we know she's sent back to ATC and given Fearless.

Still that plus the other known items you mentioned, doesn't seem enough postings to fill an 11 T-year period between graduation and Hawkwing. I somehow doubt she went directly from Lt commanding a LAC to (presumably a Lieutenant Commander) a ship's XO [that was McKeon's rank as XO on Fearless].


But I guess it's possible that RFC skipped any dirtside/stationside assignments (other than the various necessary courses) for Honor prior to the series. But I think that'd make her even less typical of a example of an RMN career.

Jayne's RMN has her complete bio to 1905 with 4x the details you guys have given here.

11/11/267 Graduated 23 in class, Saganami
Island Naval Academy
11/27/267 Midshipwoman, HMS War Maiden
(CA-39)
17/12/267 Ensign (Form S-160)
03/02/268 Lieutenant Junior Grade
03/03/268 Gunnery Officer Trainee, HMS Royal
Winton (DN-12).
08/19/269 Second Assistant Gunnery Officer, HMS
Royal Winton.
15/38/269 Lieutenant Senior Grade
16/04/269 Sailing Master, HMS Osprey (FG-1069)
15/35/271 Second Assistant Tactical Officer, HMS
Manticore (SD-01)
12/24/271 Assistant Tactical Officer, HMS Manticore
05/12/272 Commanding Officer, LAC 113
02/35/273 Lieutenant Commander
03/10/273 Executive Officer, HMS Trenchant
(CL-19)
09/14/274 Training Command
09/02/275 Executive Officer, HMS Broadsword
(CA-47)
09/28/276 Executive Officer, HMS Perseus (CL-92)
12/01/277 Tactical Officer, HMS Basilisk (SD-105)
17/12/277 Commander
17/17/277 Commanding Officer’s Course
02/08/278 Commanding Officer, HMS Hawkwing
(DD-1213)
17/06/279 Advanced Tactical Course
04/35/280 Commanding Officer, HMS Fearless
(CL-56)
02/13/281 Battle of Basilisk
04/10/281 Captain Senior Grade (promotion out of
grade)
04/35/281 Commanding Officer, HMS Fearless
(CA-286)
11/30/283 Battle of Yeltsin
13/25/283 Detached to medical leave
06/21/284 Commanding Officer, HMS Nike (BC-413)

So she had 1 stint on the ground (Training Command), and 2 training classes (Commanding officer's training and ATC) before she got CL Fearless.

Theemile wrote:
Jayne's RMN has her complete bio to 1905 with 4x the details you guys have given here.

11/11/267 Graduated 23 in class, Saganami
Island Naval Academy
11/27/267 Midshipwoman, HMS War Maiden
(CA-39)
17/12/267 Ensign (Form S-160)
03/02/268 Lieutenant Junior Grade
03/03/268 Gunnery Officer Trainee, HMS Royal
Winton (DN-12).
08/19/269 Second Assistant Gunnery Officer, HMS
Royal Winton.
15/38/269 Lieutenant Senior Grade
16/04/269 Sailing Master, HMS Osprey (FG-1069)
15/35/271 Second Assistant Tactical Officer, HMS
Manticore (SD-01)
12/24/271 Assistant Tactical Officer, HMS Manticore
05/12/272 Commanding Officer, LAC 113
02/35/273 Lieutenant Commander
03/10/273 Executive Officer, HMS Trenchant
(CL-19)
09/14/274 Training Command
09/02/275 Executive Officer, HMS Broadsword
(CA-47)
09/28/276 Executive Officer, HMS Perseus (CL-92)
12/01/277 Tactical Officer, HMS Basilisk (SD-105)
17/12/277 Commander
17/17/277 Commanding Officer’s Course
02/08/278 Commanding Officer, HMS Hawkwing
(DD-1213)
17/06/279 Advanced Tactical Course
04/35/280 Commanding Officer, HMS Fearless
(CL-56)
02/13/281 Battle of Basilisk
04/10/281 Captain Senior Grade (promotion out of
grade)
04/35/281 Commanding Officer, HMS Fearless
(CA-286)
11/30/283 Battle of Yeltsin
13/25/283 Detached to medical leave
06/21/284 Commanding Officer, HMS Nike (BC-413)

So she had 1 stint on the ground (Training Command), and 2 training classes (Commanding officer's training and ATC) before she got CL Fearless.

Thanks for providing that. Somehow I never remember to look at Jayne's for anything other than the ship details.

I'm still surprised she spend so little time off ship in her career; but there we go. Now it's just arguing about how representative of the typical career path that is.

if i read that right she did three tours as an XO. is it just me or does that seem a bit off?

a good XO tour normally guarantees a ship when the XO tour is finished. or so I thought. so how come a capable officer as her had to do three of them?

I can understand pavel young and his cronies stopping it the first time, it is the sort of petty thing they would do but given that her time on broadsword included her getting commendation/medals for her work in helping the avalanche survivors I'm surprised they were able to deny her command a second time.

Dauntless wrote:if i read that right she did three tours as an XO. is it just me or does that seem a bit off?

a good XO tour normally guarantees a ship when the XO tour is finished. or so I thought. so how come a capable officer as her had to do three of them?

I can understand pavel young and his cronies stopping it the first time, it is the sort of petty thing they would do but given that her time on broadsword included her getting commendation/medals for her work in helping the avalanche survivors I'm surprised they were able to deny her command a second time.

XO leading directly to CO is rather dependent on the organization in question, both in terms of standard policies and traditions and of the availability of CO positions to give them.

One apparent issue was the "Commanding Officer's Course" which she didn't complete until after her 3rd XO tour. Given the name and the positioning of it in her record, I am guessing that it is normally a prerequisite for getting a CO slot (though I suspect that it is at least semi-waved during wartime given events shown in the books). I wouldn't be surprised if in the normal course of events you would usually get it before an XO assignment, but regardless she didn't have it

My guess as to the chain of events - Honor would have normally gone to that course after the tour as the XO of HMS Trenchant, but that is what Pavel's cronies blocked - "Sorry, but due to a snafu in the scheduling there is no slot available at this time". So, they sent her off to the Training Command assignment with the stated intention of getting her into the CC course afterwards but wouldn't you know it, someone didn't get that memo and off she went to Broadsword...

Eventually, someone with sufficient pull noticed what was going on and got things straightened out - probably after she was already assigned to Perseus. The rather short stint (~5 months) on HMS Basilisk was likely just a time filler for the period between the availability of her relief on Perseus and the beginning of the next course.

zyffyr wrote:

Dauntless wrote:if i read that right she did three tours as an XO. is it just me or does that seem a bit off?

a good XO tour normally guarantees a ship when the XO tour is finished. or so I thought. so how come a capable officer as her had to do three of them?

I can understand pavel young and his cronies stopping it the first time, it is the sort of petty thing they would do but given that her time on broadsword included her getting commendation/medals for her work in helping the avalanche survivors I'm surprised they were able to deny her command a second time.

XO leading directly to CO is rather dependent on the organization in question, both in terms of standard policies and traditions and of the availability of CO positions to give them.

One apparent issue was the "Commanding Officer's Course" which she didn't complete until after her 3rd XO tour. Given the name and the positioning of it in her record, I am guessing that it is normally a prerequisite for getting a CO slot (though I suspect that it is at least semi-waved during wartime given events shown in the books). I wouldn't be surprised if in the normal course of events you would usually get it before an XO assignment, but regardless she didn't have it

My guess as to the chain of events - Honor would have normally gone to that course after the tour as the XO of HMS Trenchant, but that is what Pavel's cronies blocked - "Sorry, but due to a snafu in the scheduling there is no slot available at this time". So, they sent her off to the Training Command assignment with the stated intention of getting her into the CC course afterwards but wouldn't you know it, someone didn't get that memo and off she went to Broadsword...

Eventually, someone with sufficient pull noticed what was going on and got things straightened out - probably after she was already assigned to Perseus. The rather short stint (~5 months) on HMS Basilisk was likely just a time filler for the period between the availability of her relief on Perseus and the beginning of the next course.

And there was a buildup to the upcoming war with Haven, but it was still peacetime. So not so much demand for COs.

Getting back to Ginger, in SoV during her first junction transit as CO, she muses that at least the RMN makes sure all engineering officers are bridge certified.

saber964 wrote:Honor has spent most of her career in space. Except for professional development schools like ATC and PCO and probably NWC. She's spent probably 90% of her career in space. Her longest stint dirtside was when Janacek benched her to the academy.

No one is going to spend most of their career in space.

They have families.

The Spear point to tail end charlie logcom is pretty much a pyramid. You don't get to the tip of the spear without filing in that pyramid and even then most of your career will be commanding a desk dirtside because active operational command time is extremely expensive and navies like to have as many different captains with experience as possible instead of a select few for .... shall we say obvious reasons.