How To Abandon Ship?

Is there any way to use Apollo's tech to increase CM effectiveness?

cthia wrote:Is there any way to use Apollo's tech to increase CM effectiveness?

not that we’ve seen. Each CM is far too small to carry an FTL transceiver- yet each targets a specific inbound missile, so you can’t handle multiple CMs from each Control missile.

The two things I recall being discussed here are:
1) Freeflying CM control relays. Send a drone+ sized platform a few million km down the threat axis and talk to it FTL and have it take over the lightspeed links to the CMs as they pass it.

2) And FTL receiver only to the CM. The ship couldn’t get real-time feedback on the CMs sensor picture but it can push real-time updates and commands. And at <5 million km the ships sensors should be good enough to give good updates to the CMs

But no indication from David that either of these will be possible/adopted.


Of course the Royal Yacht doesn’t carry Keyhole II, so it can’t use FTL missile control anyway. But the keyhole I it does carry let it control a lot more CMs and do so while rolled behind its wedge. So it’s no slouch as a defensive unit.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Is there any way to use Apollo's tech to increase CM effectiveness?

not that we’ve seen. Each CM is far too small to carry an FTL transceiver- yet each targets a specific inbound missile, so you can’t handle multiple CMs from each Control missile.

The two things I recall being discussed here are:
1) Freeflying CM control relays. Send a drone+ sized platform a few million km down the threat axis and talk to it FTL and have it take over the lightspeed links to the CMs as they pass it.

2) And FTL receiver only to the CM. The ship couldn’t get real-time feedback on the CMs sensor picture but it can push real-time updates and commands. And at <5 million km the ships sensors should be good enough to give good updates to the CMs

But no indication from David that either of these will be possible/adopted.


Of course the Royal Yacht doesn’t carry Keyhole II, so it can’t use FTL missile control anyway. But the keyhole I it does carry let it control a lot more CMs and do so while rolled behind its wedge. So it’s no slouch as a defensive unit.

I see. Thanks Jonathan -- also for the imagery of handling a CM launch while rolled. Bitchin'!

But being able to control them doesn't help a whole helluva lot if you don't have them. No?

I remember a time or three, paraphrasing "Our launches must have passed each other like thieves in the night." First time I heard that got me thinking down this line. Seems wrong somehow in the light of Honorverse tech which seemingly should make this a piece of cake...
Especially for our combined lady geniuses.

A historical pic of two recovered WWII bullets. A sniper after my own heart. Wait. What?

cthia wrote:I can't shake the notion that the Royal Yacht should be CM intensive, like AF-1. Defensive capabilities due to the football you are carrying becomes just as important as offensive capability. Perhaps more so. It is poor consolation knowing you destroyed what was shooting at you if your Queen is killed. Is there a such thing as CM pods? If so, tow them phuckers! No Queen should leave home without them. There should be enough CMs to light up the sky like the 4th of July.

Probably worth noting is that all previous Manticoran Royal Yachts (and the current Haven One) were essentially civilian craft; HMS Duke of Cromarty is undoubtedly the most heavily armed -- both offensively and defensively -- vessel explicitly set aside as a head of state / government transport in the Honorverse.

drothgery wrote:

cthia wrote:I can't shake the notion that the Royal Yacht should be CM intensive, like AF-1. Defensive capabilities due to the football you are carrying becomes just as important as offensive capability. Perhaps more so. It is poor consolation knowing you destroyed what was shooting at you if your Queen is killed. Is there a such thing as CM pods? If so, tow them phuckers! No Queen should leave home without them. There should be enough CMs to light up the sky like the 4th of July.

Probably worth noting is that all previous Manticoran Royal Yachts (and the current Haven One) were essentially civilian craft; HMS Duke of Cromarty is undoubtedly the most heavily armed -- both offensively and defensively -- vessel explicitly set aside as a head of state / government transport in the Honorverse.

Why was that exactly? I mean like, why was she ever placed in an eggshell screaming "Wait! Don't shoot! This is the hive that holds our Queen!?"

cthia wrote:I can't shake the notion that the Royal Yacht should be CM intensive, like AF-1. Defensive capabilities due to the football you are carrying becomes just as important as offensive capability. Perhaps more so. It is poor consolation knowing you destroyed what was shooting at you if your Queen is killed. Is there a such thing as CM pods? If so, tow them phuckers! No Queen should leave home without them. There should be enough CMs to light up the sky like the 4th of July.

drothgery wrote:Probably worth noting is that all previous Manticoran Royal Yachts (and the current Haven One) were essentially civilian craft; HMS Duke of Cromarty is undoubtedly the most heavily armed -- both offensively and defensively -- vessel explicitly set aside as a head of state / government transport in the Honorverse.

cthia wrote:Why was that exactly? I mean like, why was she ever placed in an eggshell screaming "Wait! Don't shoot! This is the hive that holds our Queen!?"

While the royal yacht Queen Adrienne was essentially a civilian design, it did mount an extensive ECM suite:

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 44 wrote:They were closer, and her mouth dried as the time to attack range counter spun downward on her HUD. Some of the LACs were firing their own point defense clusters, though the range was long for those weapons, and even their grasers at their best-guess positions on the missiles, but they had virtually no chance of hitting them. Grayson One and Queen Adrienne were also responding, turning away from the threat and rolling ship in an effort to interpose their wedges. Neither yacht carried any armament, but both were equipped with comprehensive EW fits, and their electronic defenses sprang to life. Yet there was little for those defenses to defend against, for the silently pursuing killers radiated no active targeting systems to be jammed, and they seemed utterly oblivious to the efforts to confuse them with decoys.

Italics are the author's, boldface, and underlined text is my emphasis.

And you are mistaken about what defenses Air Force One mounts. While it carries ECM, I know of NO air launched missile designed to to shoot down any kind of missile that is targeted on an aircraft and which is carried by and fired from the aircraft being targeted, which would be the real life equivalent of what you think AF1 carries. A counter-missile is the Honorverse equivalent of a navy ship mounted anti-anti-ship missile, which do currently exist today.

Vince wrote:

cthia wrote:I can't shake the notion that the Royal Yacht should be CM intensive, like AF-1. Defensive capabilities due to the football you are carrying becomes just as important as offensive capability. Perhaps more so. It is poor consolation knowing you destroyed what was shooting at you if your Queen is killed. Is there a such thing as CM pods? If so, tow them phuckers! No Queen should leave home without them. There should be enough CMs to light up the sky like the 4th of July.

drothgery wrote:Probably worth noting is that all previous Manticoran Royal Yachts (and the current Haven One) were essentially civilian craft; HMS Duke of Cromarty is undoubtedly the most heavily armed -- both offensively and defensively -- vessel explicitly set aside as a head of state / government transport in the Honorverse.

cthia wrote:Why was that exactly? I mean like, why was she ever placed in an eggshell screaming "Wait! Don't shoot! This is the hive that holds our Queen!?"

While the royal yacht Queen Adrienne was essentially a civilian design, it did mount an extensive ECM suite:

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 44 wrote:They were closer, and her mouth dried as the time to attack range counter spun downward on her HUD. Some of the LACs were firing their own point defense clusters, though the range was long for those weapons, and even their grasers at their best-guess positions on the missiles, but they had virtually no chance of hitting them. Grayson One and Queen Adrienne were also responding, turning away from the threat and rolling ship in an effort to interpose their wedges. Neither yacht carried any armament, but both were equipped with comprehensive EW fits, and their electronic defenses sprang to life. Yet there was little for those defenses to defend against, for the silently pursuing killers radiated no active targeting systems to be jammed, and they seemed utterly oblivious to the efforts to confuse them with decoys.

Italics are the author's, boldface, and underlined text is my emphasis.

And you are mistaken about what defenses Air Force One mounts. While it carries ECM, I know of NO air launched missile designed to to shoot down any kind of missile that is targeted on an aircraft and which is carried by and fired from the aircraft being targeted, which would be the real life equivalent of what you think AF1 carries. A counter-missile is the Honorverse equivalent of a navy ship mounted anti-anti-ship missile, which do currently exist today.

For the sake of the authenticity of clarity, thanks Vince. I'll consider myself reprimanded.

Actual anti-missiles are not the defenses I think AF-1 carries. (Albeit I wouldn't put it past its classified nature.* Although admittedly, if the tech were available seems it'd be on our fighter jets -- lest the system is too costly and/or bulky). I was simply "loosely" characterizing our present capability of flares as CMs -- which technically is what the tech is about... to counter missiles. Hence the impetus of my statement "...to light up the sky like the 4th of July."

*I don't know what other counter-measures are employed by AF-1. Such as any deployed to handle missiles that are radar guided. Perhaps chaff.

However, the US knows that the Russians tend to fire a radar-guided and a heat-seeking missile at the same time. Which makes me wonder exactly what classified CM system AF-1 touts.

cthia wrote:I can't shake the notion that the Royal Yacht should be CM intensive, like AF-1. Defensive capabilities due to the football you are carrying becomes just as important as offensive capability. Perhaps more so. It is poor consolation knowing you destroyed what was shooting at you if your Queen is killed. Is there a such thing as CM pods? If so, tow them phuckers! No Queen should leave home without them. There should be enough CMs to light up the sky like the 4th of July.

drothgery wrote:Probably worth noting is that all previous Manticoran Royal Yachts (and the current Haven One) were essentially civilian craft; HMS Duke of Cromarty is undoubtedly the most heavily armed -- both offensively and defensively -- vessel explicitly set aside as a head of state / government transport in the Honorverse.

cthia wrote:Why was that exactly? I mean like, why was she ever placed in an eggshell screaming "Wait! Don't shoot! This is the hive that holds our Queen!?"

Vince wrote:While the royal yacht Queen Adrienne was essentially a civilian design, it did mount an extensive ECM suite:

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 44 wrote:They were closer, and her mouth dried as the time to attack range counter spun downward on her HUD. Some of the LACs were firing their own point defense clusters, though the range was long for those weapons, and even their grasers at their best-guess positions on the missiles, but they had virtually no chance of hitting them. Grayson One and Queen Adrienne were also responding, turning away from the threat and rolling ship in an effort to interpose their wedges. Neither yacht carried any armament, but both were equipped with comprehensive EW fits, and their electronic defenses sprang to life. Yet there was little for those defenses to defend against, for the silently pursuing killers radiated no active targeting systems to be jammed, and they seemed utterly oblivious to the efforts to confuse them with decoys.

Italics are the author's, boldface, and underlined text is my emphasis.

And you are mistaken about what defenses Air Force One mounts. While it carries ECM, I know of NO air launched missile designed to to shoot down any kind of missile that is targeted on an aircraft and which is carried by and fired from the aircraft being targeted, which would be the real life equivalent of what you think AF1 carries. A counter-missile is the Honorverse equivalent of a navy ship mounted anti-anti-ship missile, which do currently exist today.

cthia wrote:For the sake of the authenticity of clarity, thanks Vince. I'll consider myself reprimanded.

Actual anti-missiles are not the defenses I think AF-1 carries. (Albeit I wouldn't put it past its classified nature. Although admittedly, if the tech were available seems it'd be on our fighter jets -- lest the system is too costly and/or bulky). I was simply "loosely" characterizing our present capability of flares as CMs -- which technically is what the tech is about... to counter missiles. Hence the impetus of my statement "...to light up the sky like the 4th of July."

Flares, chaff and one-use airdropped active jammers are considered expendable electronic counter-measures (ECM), as are permanently or semi-permanently mounted infrared, and radio frequency & microwave jammers. ECM also covers 'stealth' technologies to reduce radar and infrared signatures.

cthia wrote:I can't shake the notion that the Royal Yacht should be CM intensive, like AF-1. Defensive capabilities due to the football you are carrying becomes just as important as offensive capability. Perhaps more so. It is poor consolation knowing you destroyed what was shooting at you if your Queen is killed. Is there a such thing as CM pods? If so, tow them phuckers! No Queen should leave home without them. There should be enough CMs to light up the sky like the 4th of July.

drothgery wrote:Probably worth noting is that all previous Manticoran Royal Yachts (and the current Haven One) were essentially civilian craft; HMS Duke of Cromarty is undoubtedly the most heavily armed -- both offensively and defensively -- vessel explicitly set aside as a head of state / government transport in the Honorverse.

cthia wrote:Why was that exactly? I mean like, why was she ever placed in an eggshell screaming "Wait! Don't shoot! This is the hive that holds our Queen!?"

Vince wrote:While the royal yacht Queen Adrienne was essentially a civilian design, it did mount an extensive ECM suite:

Ashes of Victory, Chapter 44 wrote:They were closer, and her mouth dried as the time to attack range counter spun downward on her HUD. Some of the LACs were firing their own point defense clusters, though the range was long for those weapons, and even their grasers at their best-guess positions on the missiles, but they had virtually no chance of hitting them. Grayson One and Queen Adrienne were also responding, turning away from the threat and rolling ship in an effort to interpose their wedges. Neither yacht carried any armament, but both were equipped with comprehensive EW fits, and their electronic defenses sprang to life. Yet there was little for those defenses to defend against, for the silently pursuing killers radiated no active targeting systems to be jammed, and they seemed utterly oblivious to the efforts to confuse them with decoys.

Italics are the author's, boldface, and underlined text is my emphasis.

And you are mistaken about what defenses Air Force One mounts. While it carries ECM, I know of NO air launched missile designed to to shoot down any kind of missile that is targeted on an aircraft and which is carried by and fired from the aircraft being targeted, which would be the real life equivalent of what you think AF1 carries. A counter-missile is the Honorverse equivalent of a navy ship mounted anti-anti-ship missile, which do currently exist today.

cthia wrote:For the sake of the authenticity of clarity, thanks Vince. I'll consider myself reprimanded.

Actual anti-missiles are not the defenses I think AF-1 carries. (Albeit I wouldn't put it past its classified nature. Although admittedly, if the tech were available seems it'd be on our fighter jets -- lest the system is too costly and/or bulky). I was simply "loosely" characterizing our present capability of flares as CMs -- which technically is what the tech is about... to counter missiles. Hence the impetus of my statement "...to light up the sky like the 4th of July."

Vince wrote:Flares, chaff and one-use airdropped active jammers are considered expendable electronic counter-measures (ECM), as are permanently or semi-permanently mounted infrared, and radio frequency & microwave jammers. ECM also covers 'stealth' technologies to reduce radar and infrared signatures.

I know! Again Vince, I simply "loosely" categorized our ECM as uncontrolled flare missiles just to make an Honorverse point. And I attempted a real life comparison to make that point.

In the Honorverse, for the situation I have up for discussion, I wasn't saying that I think the Royal Yacht should be able to light up the sky with ECM - dragon's teeth and dazzlers, which is basically what flares are -- but with counter missiles (improved with Apollo if possible).

Simultaneously making the point, that if AF-1 had the same capability, its MO shows that it wouldn't like up the sky with flares but with CMs. Or both.

IOW, AF-1 would be CM heavy if the tech currently exists. I was simply wondering why the Royal Yacht didn't employ the same mentality. Defensive platform first.

Albeit, I wonder why/if AF-1 does not also carry missiles.

cthia wrote:Albeit, I wonder why/if AF-1 does not also carry missiles.

Since one side of AF-1 is not allowed to be seen. All bets are off.