How many naval personnel is there available in Talbott.

pappilon wrote:You have to send trainees through basic training, basic remedial education then training yes you can give them basic gravitics and engineering training on something, anything, but why keep that junk around any longer than absolutely necessary because you have nothing else.

If you need training stuff, Cimterres are a better platform than surplus SLN LACS, and more useful because you might actually have to repair a frontline RHN LAC. especially considering the joint combat missions.

If you want to make sure they are ready with obsolete stuff, there is the Hyper capable stuff of the Talbott quadrant navies (primarily Rembrant, Spindle and Dresden that we have text ev.). There is no need to try to utilize anything that is new to them, obsolete, yet still needs to formation of a new logistics pipeline.

What text ev I remember was a bit unclear about what happened to the pre-existing Quadrant Hyper capable ships, but at least implied that all Quadrant planets have received at least one wing of new build RMN LACs.

pappilon wrote:

olddatsunfan wrote: Essentially this is my thought also. However, with the building yards of Grayson and Manticore rebuilding there are no spare vessels save the captured Solarian ones to train the Talbott naval personnel in. Utilizing the captured vessels as "training vessels" in now way creates a "two tier" navy in my mind as the need for trained naval personnel will be essential when the yards to come up. Utilizing the captured Solarian vessels would give up to a two year head start in their retraining ...

Yes, I suppose the USAF can train fighter pilots on old biplanes, and teach mechanics to repair and maintain them. Unfortunately at some point, besides gaining basic flight school experience ( basic flight school) and basic mechanics knowledge (Basic High school shop class) the skills learned are worthless. and there are more than enough tenth fleet LACs and ships swanning around the Talbott sector to provide hands on experience.

I don't understand the insistence that a 1948 Dodge pick-up is the best way to train an OTR driver for his CDL driving test. Obsolete crap is obsolete crap all you get by training on obsolete crap is obsolete expericence.

Granted, you gotta learn to drive (pilot) something, but beyond your basic take off, landing , flight check, what else can you learn and how many hours does it take to learn it? At some point, probably the end of this arc Bolthole will be kicking out new GA LACs and ships since their facilities were not damaged. The new yards and fabrication platforms will be coming on line and production will resume.

You have to send trainees through basic training, basic remedial education then training yes you can give them basic gravitics and engineering training on something, anything, but why keep that junk around any longer than absolutely necessary because you have nothing else.

If you need training stuff, Cimterres are a better platform than surplus SLN LACS, and more useful because you might actually have to repair a frontline RHN LAC. especially considering the joint combat missions.

It's because of the time lag between new construction becoming available and the availability of the captured vessels. The LAC crews are too small and complex to re train personnel on, I'd believe, the use of obsolete Haven naval vessles would not be much better than that of using the Solarian vessels I'd think.

pappilon wrote:
I think the term is "Being phased in." we have crews trained to operate POS surplus SLN LACs. We have modern LACs and crews from Manticore arriving in system. I think the plan is to train up the existing sysdef pilots to operate the new LACs and their ground crews to maintain them, which frees up better trained (at this moment in time) Manty pilots to form up with combat units.

Why would anyone issue SLN LAC's? Give them captured SLN ships if the goal is to give them obsolete crap...

Assume for a moment that there are roughly 100,000-150,000 naval personnel in Talbott alone. If the RMN is in the 2million-5million personnel and the GSN is with similar strength then folding those 100-150 thousand Talbot crew's should not be a major problem.

Giving those personnel retraining and then spreading them throughout the fleet allows them to be retrained faster. If you put a crew member or an officer from Talbott in an RMN ship allowing others to continue with the training and integration on the job and pick up the slack in the mean time seems like the faster way to make them effective rather than give those same people POS LAC's which would not improve the defensive posture of the SEM by any noticeable factor.

As replacement pilots come available, the best pilots would be given the option to join upwith RMN units. I do not think wasting a resource is at all being considered. Dame Estelle and Admiral Khumalo are not discussing squandering a vital resource but the most efficient way to utilize it.

Most if not all of those crew members are without prolong, the best way to use them is to retrain the ASAP and integrate them in the RMN to get the most use from them. Having 1 missile tech surrounded by 10 RMN missile techs allows those 10 to bring his training farther along and pick up the sack initially, having 1 RMN missile tech trying to teach 10 Talbott members would be significantly harder, would yield lower results and tie down significant RMN personnel while not improving the RMN's capabilities.

olddatsunfan wrote:Essentially this is my thought also. However, with the building yards of Grayson and Manticore rebuilding there are no spare vessels save the captured Solarian ones to train the Talbott naval personnel in. Utilizing the captured vessels as "training vessels" in now way creates a "two tier" navy in my mind as the need for trained naval personnel will be essential when the yards to come up. Utilizing the captured Solarian vessels would give up to a two year head start in their retraining ...

I don't think the problem will be that major, a number of the former Talbott naval personnel would not be worth retraining as they would be too old and cannot serve the RMN long enough to make the retraining worth it. As for space to put them? There is the GSM and RMN to train them and it will be in waves. Also keep in mind that not all of them will require ships. We are not talking about middies, many of them will be experienced naval crew members so the goal is to upgrade their training rather than try to introduce them to operating on a warship. Create extra positions on anything heavy cruiser and above because they have the crew's to take up the slack and rotate them through. Once they are deemed to be at an acceptable level they are posted to a ship.

olddatsunfan wrote:The LAC crews are too small and complex to re train personnel on, I'd believe,

Yet there is textev that using the LAC wings assigned to each system for system defense (using modern, front-line versions of the Shrike, Ferret, and Katana) and the simulators provided for each wing to train Talbotters up to RMN standard is precisely Manticore's plan for integrating the quadrant into the RMN without compromising RMN standards.

The simulators would be very similar to the ones Honor had installed at Jason Bay House for after dinner entertainment. They can simulate any RMN hardware up to an SD(P) flag bridge. They would be the same as the simulators we've seen in use by various POV characters.

There is no need to deprive the recyclers in the Manticore system of source material for their crushers.

Sigs wrote:

pappilon wrote:
I think the term is "Being phased in." we have crews trained to operate POS surplus SLN LACs. We have modern LACs and crews from Manticore arriving in system. I think the plan is to train up the existing sysdef pilots to operate the new LACs and their ground crews to maintain them, which frees up better trained (at this moment in time) Manty pilots to form up with combat units.

Sigs wrote:Why would anyone issue SLN LAC's? Give them captured SLN ships if the goal is to give them obsolete crap...

Nobody is issuing. Unless they, or someone else in the Talbott sector designed and built them, their only source before the wormhole ws discovered is [probably] obsolete SL surplus. That is where they got them [I am assuming]

Sigs wrote:Assume for a moment that there are roughly 100,000-150,000 naval personnel in Talbott alone. If the RMN is in the 2million-5million personnel and the GSN is with similar strength then folding those 100-150 thousand Talbot crew's should not be a major problem.

Except that they are seriously deficient in basic education required. That was the problem Haven had Their ed system sucked and their maintenance crews were under trained and their maintenance always lagged. Which is why Horace Harkness had such an easy time compromising the State sec ship they were held prisoner on.

pappilon wrote:As replacement pilots come available, the best pilots would be given the option to join upwith RMN units. I do not think wasting a resource is at all being considered. Dame Estelle and Admiral Khumalo are not discussing squandering a vital resource but the most efficient way to utilize it.

Sigs wrote:Most if not all of those crew members are without prolong, the best way to use them is to retrain the ASAP and integrate them in the RMN to get the most use from them. Having 1 missile tech surrounded by 10 RMN missile techs allows those 10 to bring his training farther along and pick up the sack initially, having 1 RMN missile tech trying to teach 10 Talbott members would be significantly harder, would yield lower results and tie down significant RMN personnel while not improving the RMN's capabilities.

So why keep all that obsolete tonnage floating in orbit, if you're sticking them on GA ships with GA crews. And that is still not addressing the basic education shortfall.

The education shortfall is something that is going to have to be addressed across a fairly wide range and the solutions are going to also cover a wide range.
The Talbott Army forces has already been dealt with. Those that already had SL weapons (most of them) are being kept together and deployed together with said weapons and we presume are getting training in SEM law, tactics and philosophy, upgraded communicaiton and communications protocol etc. Those with homegrown weapons are being converted to SEM weapons along with other training. It is not like the standard or even a couple of generations older actual or licensed built SL equipment it terrible, it's just not SEM. But they have a lot of it and the are already trained and will, for the near term, kept in present unit formations for continuity.
As far as existing Talbott naval personel, they can already use their hypercapable warships and are presumed at least capable. It was noted that one of the reasons they had those ships was as a deterent against Monica. For the most part, their anticipated opponents are going to be using SLN equipment (or variations) and training. It is upgrading or retraining the Talbott people to SEM tactics, procedures and equpment that is needed to bring them onboard existing SEM ships and become proficient. Probably anybody comming in to the navy now will have to get what would be (unkindly but accurately) remedial work to bring them up to speed on SEM level tech along with basic naval training. Just when you start pulling crew off existing Talbott Quadrant legacy forces depends on how fast you can get them running up to speed with the new (to them) equipment and can replace the ships that will be decommissioned. From one point of view, the best of the Talbott naval forces should make that transition relativly quickly. This is NOT the SLN or the puppet forces of some dictatorship only interested in staying in power. The local SDFs we have been shown in Talbott might have really old equipment (like ancient and obsoleat LACs) but their limitations were primarily fixed by what they could afford, aqiure and had been exposed to. NOT their motivation, profesionalism and willingness (and capasity) to learn new things and adapt to changing realities. That will shortly mean that they will be spread at least amoung the RMN ships and basing in the Quadrant to get the training and experience they need. Those who don't make the transition (and there will be difficulties) probably can remain in productive positions, just not on ships.
Bringing up the overall education of the new citizens is a much bigger challange. In the short term, naval enlistments testing is probably going to presume that to bring in suitable candidates, a lot of them are going to have to go through some level of remedial preparation work to get to where they have to be to start with the technical ends of the service. That will get better over time but you are talking years. Just deal with it.
The plan to upgrade the Quadrant's many educational systems was already discussed and included sending teachers and trainers to all the systems along with the textbooks and other materials accross all levels of education at SEM standards. That will be a much harder project as you need to start at all levels and build. There will be lag time in getting this implimented as your are talking about hundreds of thousands of people (trained and experienced) that you need to seed into the seperate Systems general educational systems and technical training at so many levels.
There is also the need to bring Prolong to all that can still receive it successfully along with the range of medical knowledge and training available. In many cases, both the general edcuation and medical upgrades will require building local capasity to produce the materials needed.

pappilon wrote:

Sigs wrote:Assume for a moment that there are roughly 100,000-150,000 naval personnel in Talbott alone. If the RMN is in the 2million-5million personnel and the GSN is with similar strength then folding those 100-150 thousand Talbot crew's should not be a major problem.

Except that they are seriously deficient in basic education required. That was the problem Haven had Their ed system sucked and their maintenance crews were under trained and their maintenance always lagged. Which is why Horace Harkness had such an easy time compromising the State sec ship they were held prisoner on.

Yeah and putting them on LAC's that add nothing to the war fighting capabilities does nothing for their education.

The whole point is to send people to Manticore and Grayson to give them an upgrade of sorts. Wether it is intensive 6 month course or a 2 year course the end result would be to bring them up to trade specific standards. They may have gaps in their knowledge but they would be capable to fulfill their duties. Then you place them in GSN and RMN ships where they will receive further training on the job surrounded by competent GSN and RMN crew's. Putting them in obsolete ships and putting RMN personnel on obsolete ships to help train them means not only do you not take advantage of the surplus of personnel from Talbott but you also lose a significant number of RMN personnel to obsolete ships.

Keep in mind that a lot of the support personnel that the GSN and RMN had are gone after OB, which means that these people don't necessarily all need to be in ships, they could subsequently be retrained to be supply technicians, clerks, logistics officers etc etc etc.

So why keep all that obsolete tonnage floating in orbit, if you're sticking them on GA ships with GA crews. And that is still not addressing the basic education shortfall.

Use it as target practice. Giving them captured SLN ships at least gives them parity with any SLN raider, getting them to keep LACs that might be outgunned by pirates seems completely useless and counterproductive.

Sigs wrote:Giving them captured SLN ships at least gives them parity with any SLN raider, ...

Why should they settle for mere parity when they can have Shrike-Bs, Ferrets, Katanas and Shoals of Apollo SysDef pods.

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:Giving them captured SLN ships at least gives them parity with any SLN raider, ...

Why should they settle for mere parity when they can have Shrike-Bs, Ferrets, Katanas and Shoals of Apollo SysDef pods.

Because SLN ships they at least might have experience with, dumping top of the line LAC's and Apollo Pods would require a tremendous investment of manpower by the RMN at a time when they can ill afford it.

My point was give them Captured SLN ships if you or integrate them in to the RMN. Making them keep "warships" that are generations out of date by any standard you care to use will only alienate those crews and waste a potentially useful resource at a time when the RMN is short on people.