The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...

n7axw wrote:Frankly, why would Charis help the COGA? The inner circle's objective is to destroy the COGA, not rescue it. Let them dig their way out of their own hole...

I really don't see the benefit to Charis in this, certainly not on any substantive level. Helping the COGA could well be a way of subsidizing the next war.

Don

-

Charis would help the CoGA move ever Closer to the Proscriptions. How does this threaten the Inner Circle's long term goal? I don't see that it does. I also don't see the CoGA building steam ships to threaten the ICN prior the Return. Neither do I see loyalists building steam tanks to threaten Siddermark. Oh, the loyalist will build them, but if they developed the skills to do it well, they would only be paying lip service to the Proscriptions. That's a good thing.

I do see Harchong and Siddermak fighting each other either directly or with proxies in Desnair. Wouldn't be surprised if Charis didn't participate directly but did help Siddermark with new weapon systems. King James of Delthak would come begging to Irys to Save his Kingdom. I can see Irys doing it to, if he concedes to some extraterritorial possessions and letting the CoC open churches in the Kingdom.

Come to think of it, I can see Charis only stepping in the war to protect CoC locations. Any force attacks a CoC location and Chasian forces hit back HARD. Perhaps heavy bombing with the derigibles or hard strike with air mobile troops or the ICN sends a super-dreadnought to pound a port.

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:Frankly, why would Charis help the COGA? The inner circle's objective is to destroy the COGA, not rescue it. Let them dig their way out of their own hole...

I really don't see the benefit to Charis in this, certainly not on any substantive level. Helping the COGA could well be a way of subsidizing the next war.

Don

-

Charis would help the CoGA move ever Closer to the Proscriptions. How does this threaten the Inner Circle's long term goal? I don't see that it does. I also don't see the CoGA building steam ships to threaten the ICN prior the Return. Neither do I see loyalists building steam tanks to threaten Siddermark. Oh, the loyalist will build them, but if they developed the skills to do it well, they would only be paying lip service to the Proscriptions. That's a good thing.

I do see Harchong and Siddermak fighting each other either directly or with proxies in Desnair. Wouldn't be surprised if Charis didn't participate directly but did help Siddermark with new weapon systems. King James of Delthak would come begging to Irys to Save his Kingdom. I can see Irys doing it to, if he concedes to some extraterritorial possessions and letting the CoC open churches in the Kingdom.

Come to think of it, I can see Charis only stepping in the war to protect CoC locations. Any force attacks a CoC location and Chasian forces hit back HARD. Perhaps heavy bombing with the derigibles or hard strike with air mobile troops or the ICN sends a super-dreadnought to pound a port.

I was wondering who King James is. All I could think of is the Bible... Then I realize you meant King Zhames... Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing him get some help. I thought he got kind of a bum deal in the series. His real trouble is that he was a bit too compliant with the inquisition and then gets his fingers burned for it. He certainly isn't a villian. He just doesn't manage to escape the notion that he owes the church obedience even when it is at the expense of his kingdom. I doubt that he even considered reining in the inquisitors a realistic possibility. In that he is not really any different than Safehold's other rulers.

Don

-

n7axw wrote:Frankly, why would Charis help the COGA? The inner circle's objective is to destroy the COGA, not rescue it. Let them dig their way out of their own hole...

I really don't see the benefit to Charis in this, certainly not on any substantive level. Helping the COGA could well be a way of subsidizing the next war.

Don

-

It would not so much be helping the CoGA if its done on Charis' terms. If the terms include things like extraterritorial holdings, where local Temple Loyalists and especially Harchongian serfs and Desnairian slaves can find gainful employment, that allows poverty-stricken parents to send their children to fancy Charisian schools (rather than Church-administered schools), that starts selling all the wonderful benefits of modern technology and pushes the other realms to innovate just to keep up, that would further weaken the Church's hold. It allows Charis to both seem magnanimous to regular people and to establish the same sort of control mechanisms the Church once used to keep the other realms in line (like Dohlar). It would also allow the modern, industrialized economy to erode the institutions of serfdom and slavery, as putting thousands of hapless serfs to work plucking cotton-silk and steel-thistle silk and then removing the seeds will no longer be able to compete with water-powered machinery that only requires 2-3 people to operate. And if the Church refuses Charis' terms, then it will collapse. A win-win scenario for Charis.

One of my university professors taught me that if WWI brought about the dissolution of no less than three of the five major powers in Europe at the time, WWII had completed the dissolution of the remaining two and shifted the center of power away from Europe to the two superpowers on the periphery (the USA and the USSR). The political impact of the Jihad is somewhat similar in effect. Before it, the great realms included Siddarmark, Desnair and Harchong with the Temple Lands trying to maintain some sort of balance of power. Charis, Chishlom, Corisande and all the other "out islands" were hardly blips on the Church's radar. The church had been more worried over the much closer threat of Siddarmark than the distant threat of Charis. Clyntahn had simply seen an opportunity to eliminate Charis and make it an object lesson for all other realms (especially Siddarmark).

Yet now Charis and Siddarmark are formal allies and are the most militarily and economically powerful realms on the planet. The Church's military forces were defeated in the field and the war ended with those military forces being pushed out of all allied territory and with some of their allies' territory being invaded. The Church's economy is seriously diminished and can no longer offer loans to other realms (as yet another control mechanism). The center of power on the planet will therefore shift away from Zion to Tellisberg, Cherayth and Siddar City. Rather than trying to deal with the Church when they need loans or political support, the other realms will have to go to Charis and Siddarmark instead. And the best way to get that done is for Charis to spread its influence everywhere there is salt water while Siddarmark spreads it with railroad tracks (which would coincidentally link the Charisian holdings to Siddarmark).

Yeah, King Zhames of Defahrahk(so?), Don. Charis needs an ally on Howard, especially if Desnair is the object of a proxy war.

If the ICN can establish naval air bases there with air mobile marines in bases on Howard, they can largely control the intensity of the Desnairan war. Coupled with their naval bases in the Gulf of Jahras, Charis can reach anywhere they need to.

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, King Zhames of Defahrahk(so?), Don. Charis needs an ally on Howard, especially if Desnair is the object of a proxy war.

If the ICN can establish naval air bases there with air mobile marines in bases on Howard, they can largely control the intensity of the Desnairan war. Coupled with their naval bases in the Gulf of Jahras, Charis can reach anywhere they need to.

They would have Dohlar as a potential ally already, as well as an "understanding" with South Harchong (which may well break off from Harchong proper in the event of a civil war). But for King Zhames of Defahrahk to become any ally of Charis, he would have to apologize publicly for his failure to protect his kinsmen while they were under his protection. They could send Irys to negotiate, probably backed up by several warships, and they would insist on meeting in Ferayd, where the infamous massacre occurred. The question really is how desperate Zhames would be for Charisian trade and investment. Indeed, given how small and relatively poor Delfahrahk is, the kingdom might become a test bed for a Charisian peaceful takeover. They would offer extremely generous terms for Zhames' people but not to the nobility or the king personally. Railroads would stretch out from Ferayd across the kingdom and move Charisian goods quickly and cheaply. Charisian investments could reach even smaller towns in the kingdom. And if Delfahrahk suddenly becomes a very wealthy kingdom, as wealthy as Silkiah perhaps, then it would be very hard to argue with that success on religious grounds. After all, we've seen how easily religious considerations get thrown out the window when money and prosperity is involved.

thanatos wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, King Zhames of Defahrahk(so?), Don. Charis needs an ally on Howard, especially if Desnair is the object of a proxy war.

If the ICN can establish naval air bases there with air mobile marines in bases on Howard, they can largely control the intensity of the Desnairan war. Coupled with their naval bases in the Gulf of Jahras, Charis can reach anywhere they need to.

They would have Dohlar as a potential ally already, as well as an "understanding" with South Harchong (which may well break off from Harchong proper in the event of a civil war). But for King Zhames of Defahrahk to become any ally of Charis, he would have to apologize publicly for his failure to protect his kinsmen while they were under his protection. They could send Irys to negotiate, probably backed up by several warships, and they would insist on meeting in Ferayd, where the infamous massacre occurred. The question really is how desperate Zhames would be for Charisian trade and investment. Indeed, given how small and relatively poor Delfahrahk is, the kingdom might become a test bed for a Charisian peaceful takeover. They would offer extremely generous terms for Zhames' people but not to the nobility or the king personally. Railroads would stretch out from Ferayd across the kingdom and move Charisian goods quickly and cheaply. Charisian investments could reach even smaller towns in the kingdom. And if Delfahrahk suddenly becomes a very wealthy kingdom, as wealthy as Silkiah perhaps, then it would be very hard to argue with that success on religious grounds. After all, we've seen how easily religious considerations get thrown out the window when money and prosperity is involved.

King Zhames might be very desperate depending on how the Desnairian situation works out. What I see is Desnair having issues keeping up with South Harchong in economic growth. The Northern Desnairi nobles will begin to feel the pinch as more and more of their gold is spent outside the kingdom and very little returning. The remainder of the Empire will feel the pinch and be very tempted to do something about it.

I can see the Northern nobles courting Dohlaran and South Harchong investment. I can see those nobles reneging on the contractual obligations in some highhanded manner and facing a rather angry Dohlaran navy and Harchong army. That sort of tension begins to rise and both Harchong and Dohlar see easy pickings in Desnair. Dohlar is a densely populated nation. They need space and natural resources. Harchong has always been expansionist. Toss in Silkiah and Siddermark looking for easy pickings and eliminating the their Southern threat and Desnair is a quagmire of warring factions being pressed South. Delfarahk will seriously feel the pressure.

I am not sure how Charis will respond to this. I can see their backing Duke Kohlman to the Imperial throne. He of course must agree to govern his Empire according to basic human rights as defined by Siddermark and Charis. If Charisian backed forces succeed in securing Desnair for their faction and protect Delfarahk from any Desnari civil war, Cayleb and Sharley gain massive cred. If both those nations also become wealthier as a result of Charisian support, Charis has proven it has a huge stick and a very tasty carrot as well.

So, when Charis gives another nation a choice, wisdom will scream to take the carrot.

thanatos wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, King Zhames of Defahrahk(so?), Don. Charis needs an ally on Howard, especially if Desnair is the object of a proxy war.

If the ICN can establish naval air bases there with air mobile marines in bases on Howard, they can largely control the intensity of the Desnairan war. Coupled with their naval bases in the Gulf of Jahras, Charis can reach anywhere they need to.

They would have Dohlar as a potential ally already, as well as an "understanding" with South Harchong (which may well break off from Harchong proper in the event of a civil war). But for King Zhames of Defahrahk to become any ally of Charis, he would have to apologize publicly for his failure to protect his kinsmen while they were under his protection. They could send Irys to negotiate, probably backed up by several warships, and they would insist on meeting in Ferayd, where the infamous massacre occurred. The question really is how desperate Zhames would be for Charisian trade and investment. Indeed, given how small and relatively poor Delfahrahk is, the kingdom might become a test bed for a Charisian peaceful takeover. They would offer extremely generous terms for Zhames' people but not to the nobility or the king personally. Railroads would stretch out from Ferayd across the kingdom and move Charisian goods quickly and cheaply. Charisian investments could reach even smaller towns in the kingdom. And if Delfahrahk suddenly becomes a very wealthy kingdom, as wealthy as Silkiah perhaps, then it would be very hard to argue with that success on religious grounds. After all, we've seen how easily religious considerations get thrown out the window when money and prosperity is involved.

Zhames might apologize, but frankly he never had a clue what was going on that night Merlin broke the kids out of the castle. The inquisition planned the kids murder, took charge of Zhames household guard without his consent, lied to both Zhames and his troops about what was going on and got a bunch of people killed in sevice of the lie to say nothing of getting his home burned to the ground. In fact he wasn't even on site the night it all happened.

Zhames was betrayed by the church he trusted all his life. Unfortunately that same is true of every Safehold ruler to one extent or the other. I don't know if Zhames and Delfarek figure in the story. But I hope that Zhames at least woke up enough to get rid of his inquisitors. For him and his kingdom, they have been nothing but bad news.

Don

-

"

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, King Zhames of Defahrahk(so?), Don. Charis needs an ally on Howard, especially if Desnair is the object of a proxy war.

If the ICN can establish naval air bases there with air mobile marines in bases on Howard, they can largely control the intensity of the Desnairan war. Coupled with their naval bases in the Gulf of Jahras, Charis can reach anywhere they need to.

thanatos wrote:They would have Dohlar as a potential ally already, as well as an "understanding" with South Harchong (which may well break off from Harchong proper in the event of a civil war). But for King Zhames of Defahrahk to become any ally of Charis, he would have to apologize publicly for his failure to protect his kinsmen while they were under his protection. They could send Irys to negotiate, probably backed up by several warships, and they would insist on meeting in Ferayd, where the infamous massacre occurred. The question really is how desperate Zhames would be for Charisian trade and investment. Indeed, given how small and relatively poor Delfahrahk is, the kingdom might become a test bed for a Charisian peaceful takeover. They would offer extremely generous terms for Zhames' people but not to the nobility or the king personally. Railroads would stretch out from Ferayd across the kingdom and move Charisian goods quickly and cheaply. Charisian investments could reach even smaller towns in the kingdom. And if Delfahrahk suddenly becomes a very wealthy kingdom, as wealthy as Silkiah perhaps, then it would be very hard to argue with that success on religious grounds. After all, we've seen how easily religious considerations get thrown out the window when money and prosperity is involved.

n7axw wrote:Zhames might apologize, but frankly he never had a clue what was going on that night Merlin broke the kids out of the castle. The inquisition planned the kids murder, took charge of Zhames household guard without his consent, lied to both Zhames and his troops about what was going on and got a bunch of people killed in sevice of the lie to say nothing of getting his home burned to the ground. In fact he wasn't even on site the night it all happened.

Zhames was betrayed by the church he trusted all his life. Unfortunately that same is true of every Safehold ruler to one extent or the other. I don't know if Zhames and Delfarek figure in the story. But I hope that Zhames at least woke up enough to get rid of his inquisitors. For him and his kingdom, they have been nothing but bad news.

Don

-

Zhames was betrayed by the Church. Duchairn is willing to help those that the G4 wronged. However, he is unable to help much. His authority to order secular rulers has taken a beating. His ability to compel anything has taken a serious beating. His ability to purchase/bribe/aid financially rulers has taken a serious beating.

If Desnair turns to chaos, Zhames is hosed as his armed forces can't hope to keep the turmoil outside his borders. If Desnair keeps it together, it will look for ways to improve its financial condition. Conquest is one way now that the CoGA has lost its ability to compel them to stop. Delfarahk is one target with little to stop the Imperial cavalry. However poor it may be, it is a source for labor and resources.

Don is right that Zhames never wanted Irys and her brother hurt. Zhames took them in and gave them what protection he could. He will undoubtedly seek Irys' forgiveness as soo as he can. I am sure that Hektor can ask to use some of the family stash in Silverlode to facilitate helping her poorer relations. Perhaps she will set up a Charisian enclave in that quaint coastal town Hektor used to rescue her from the CoGA. Heck, they set up a summer home there for old time sake. If Zhames was smart he would grant her a barony with th town her seat. Of course, that Barony would include Westbreak Island and Sampson's Land. Those islands are perfect for ICN bases and coaling stations.

PeterZ wrote:Zhames was betrayed by the Church. Duchairn is willing to help those that the G4 wronged. However, he is unable to help much. His authority to order secular rulers has taken a beating. His ability to compel anything has taken a serious beating. His ability to purchase/bribe/aid financially rulers has taken a serious beating.

If Desnair turns to chaos, Zhames is hosed as his armed forces can't hope to keep the turmoil outside his borders. If Desnair keeps it together, it will look for ways to improve its financial condition. Conquest is one way now that the CoGA has lost its ability to compel them to stop. Delfarahk is one target with little to stop the Imperial cavalry. However poor it may be, it is a source for labor and resources.

Don is right that Zhames never wanted Irys and her brother hurt. Zhames took them in and gave them what protection he could. He will undoubtedly seek Irys' forgiveness as soo as he can. I am sure that Hektor can ask to use some of the family stash in Silverlode to facilitate helping her poorer relations. Perhaps she will set up a Charisian enclave in that quaint coastal town Hektor used to rescue her from the CoGA. Heck, they set up a summer home there for old time sake. If Zhames was smart he would grant her a barony with th town her seat. Of course, that Barony would include Westbreak Island and Sampson's Land. Those islands are perfect for ICN bases and coaling stations.

While Zhames might have been betrayed by the Church, he still could have done more to protect Irys and Daivyn while they were under his protection. Instead, he was inclined to simply hand them over to the Church to wash his hands of any responsibility for them, allowed his ministers to spy on them, handed copies of their correspondence to the Church, indulged the Church's demands regarding the regency council and did nothing so far as we know to discipline the troops that had complied with Mother Church's lawful orders to arrest Coris and place Irys and Daivyn in the church's "protective custody". Nor did Zhames do or say anything to hold his troops accountable for the Ferayd Massacre (and the CoGA's "tribunal" only dealt with the guilt of their already dead inquisitors and gave Clyntahn a mild slap on the wrist for public consumption). As such, Zhames has much to atone for in Charis' eyes, at least for his inaction and willingness to capitulate with the Church's demands. As such, Zhames will have to compromise on far more than his pride in order to get Charisian financial aid.

Yeah, Zhames does have much to atone for. Yeah, he does have to make serious concessions. Yet, without Zhames' lack of resistance to CoGA demands, Corisande would likely have continued to resist Charisian governance. It was Coris' desperation of the Clyntahn plan to assassinate Irys and her brother that led him to seek Charisian aide. Absent that threat, Irys would have had neither the desire nor the opportunity to be open to anything Charisian. Nor would Corisande see Charis as the murderer of their Prince. Sharley would have made inroads into pacifying the island, but it would not have had the return of its ruling house. It would not have had a Daykin return to govern over them and willingly join the Empire.

So, Zhames' cowardice worked in both Irys' and Charis' favor. Does that go to Zhames' credit? No, but Hektor and Irys owe their lives together to Zhames' choices and their responses to those choices.

As for any atoning, allow Charis to set up enclaves and if Samson's Land and Westbreak are claimed by Delferahk, grant the to Charis. Those enclaves will make Zhames' people better off and by extension, he will become better off. If Desnair goes south as I suspect it will, Zhames might even survive.