Hauptman Cartel Future

pappilon wrote:

cthia wrote:There was one point in storyline when the curve ball was thrown with Honor and Stacey becoming such good friends that one of my Cupid arrows was feeling rather antsy.

Stacey could always end up extending the Harrington household. Three of a kind is a good hand, but two-pair is even better. Joining the marriage would put paid to the final resolution of the Hauptman fortune. Who else has any hopes of ever understanding the filthy rich Princess?

'Course, poor, rotten, lucky old Hamish if so.

ldwechsler wrote:Even more fun. Just imagine the wealth in one family. And, who knows, after Hamish dies VERY happy, perhaps they'll find a younger hubby.

ldwedhsler wrote:Emily does not, it seem, partake of sex any more. Back down the line, she talks about that with Honor.

And if Stacey joins the marriage, she would be agreeing to be married (that is, to have sex) with Hamish.

cthia wrote:She would also be agreeing to have sex with Honor. It's a marriage. Everyone is married. I would imagine that Grayson wives share this same sex benefit as well. Several wives and one tired husband makes Jill an ill pill simply waiting her turn.

ISTR that passage regarding Emily's disinterest as well. But that was before the addition of Honor. Why can't Emily have a renewed interest in sex? Before, there was no way she could participate with Hamish. She couldn't even give pleasure. With a woman it would be different. Her chair could have a vibrate feature installed mimicking the old washers of the 70's. No wonder women enjoyed doing the laundry back then.

"Emily, for some reason I crave our chats nowadays."

I think there is some issue with permanent nerve damage + Emily, like Honor, does not respond to regen therapies. No nerve impulses = no pleasure center stimulus.

Also they seem to be rewriting the marriage contract, At least that is the theological ruling for changing the marriage contract between Emily and Hamish to allow Honor to marry them. At what point is it rape for Stacey to not be in love with Hamish yet be required to "have relations" with him? THAT is the point of polyamory: One person in a marriage being in lve with someone else and having the freedom to live in both relationships. Which does not imply a quid pro quo sexual relationship with the other marriage partner; but, yes the other also having the right to partner(s) as well.

Actually, we don't know if Grayson (or other) wives engage in sex. The multiple marriage thing was because of the small number of men.

There is no textev that wives do anything sexual with each other.

I might note that if Emily can do anything sexual with a woman she could probably do it with a man. But it is implied that she and Hamish have not been able to have sex since her accident. I would assume that covers oral sex as well. She needs mechanical help to breathe.

And we should note that there is nothing at all that in any way hints that Honor, Stacey or Emily is anything but heterosexual.

pappilon wrote:

cthia wrote:There was one point in storyline when the curve ball was thrown with Honor and Stacey becoming such good friends that one of my Cupid arrows was feeling rather antsy.

Stacey could always end up extending the Harrington household. Three of a kind is a good hand, but two-pair is even better. Joining the marriage would put paid to the final resolution of the Hauptman fortune. Who else has any hopes of ever understanding the filthy rich Princess?

'Course, poor, rotten, lucky old Hamish if so.

ldwechsler wrote:Even more fun. Just imagine the wealth in one family. And, who knows, after Hamish dies VERY happy, perhaps they'll find a younger hubby.

ldwedhsler wrote:Emily does not, it seem, partake of sex any more. Back down the line, she talks about that with Honor.

And if Stacey joins the marriage, she would be agreeing to be married (that is, to have sex) with Hamish.

cthia wrote:She would also be agreeing to have sex with Honor. It's a marriage. Everyone is married. I would imagine that Grayson wives share this same sex benefit as well. Several wives and one tired husband makes Jill an ill pill simply waiting her turn.

ISTR that passage regarding Emily's disinterest as well. But that was before the addition of Honor. Why can't Emily have a renewed interest in sex? Before, there was no way she could participate with Hamish. She couldn't even give pleasure. With a woman it would be different. Her chair could have a vibrate feature installed mimicking the old washers of the 70's. No wonder women enjoyed doing the laundry back then.

"Emily, for some reason I crave our chats nowadays."

I think there is some issue with permanent nerve damage + Emily, like Honor, does not respond to regen therapies. No nerve impulses = no pleasure center stimulus.

Also they seem to be rewriting the marriage contract, At least that is the theological ruling for changing the marriage contract between Emily and Hamish to allow Honor to marry them. At what point is it rape for Stacey to not be in love with Hamish yet be required to "have relations" with him? THAT is the point of polyamory: One person in a marriage being in lve with someone else and having the freedom to live in both relationships. Which does not imply a quid pro quo sexual relationship with the other marriage partner; but, yes the other also having the right to partner(s) as well.

ldwechsler wrote:Actually, we don't know if Grayson (or other) wives engage in sex. The multiple marriage thing was because of the small number of men.

There is no textev that wives do anything sexual with each other.

I might note that if Emily can do anything sexual with a woman she could probably do it with a man. But it is implied that she and Hamish have not been able to have sex since her accident. I would assume that covers oral sex as well. She needs mechanical help to breathe.

And we should note that there is nothing at all that in any way hints that Honor, Stacey or Emily is anything but heterosexual.

All too true. We don't know that Grayson wives engage in mutual sex. And vice versa, we don't know that they don't. Grayson wives may also be up against their own religious beliefs preventing them from. Or it could be seen as passing ones own Doctrine of the Test to abstain, or to participate to mitigate any built-up sexual pressures and tensions in the marriage. I think it would be a personal issue resolved on a per marriage basis and a totally private decision. As a precaution, we must not overlook or forget the forceful reality of the raw relentless driving need of burning desire found in human sexuality.

Also, we must not rule out a possible new desire of Emily to watch Hamish's pleasuring and the conception of a baby with tears of joy. There would be no jealousy in this arrangement. Emily's chair can be augmented with a "device" to give pleasure so that she can participate in the joy of giving. Also, she does have some movement of one hand, iinm.

Besides, wouldn't it be poetic justice if Emily's own mind provides the possibility of a cure. "Hey, I feel something tingling!"

That's a long shot. I know. But the mind and body are fascinating devices.

In the case of Stacey joining the threesome, I think those issues would be handled (npi) beforehand. The reason it might work is that Stacey may agree in a limited fashion (Honor always present). Again, I think it would be a personal and private decision that just might happen to be right down Stacey's alley that comes out in an intimate conversation with Honor on a girl's night out that prompted the making of the whole enchilada in the first place.

Also, let's not paint Hamish as a wanton, willing pervert. He may not actually find Stacey alluring. Stacey didn't opt for biosculpt in a world of masterpieces that have spoiled the human appreciation of natural eye candy. Which again, would relegate itself to a personal agreement between the four.

One thing's for sure. I'd certainly like to be a fly on the wall enjoying that particular preconceived premarital discussion.

ldwechsler wrote:Actually, we don't know if Grayson (or other) wives engage in sex. The multiple marriage thing was because of the small number of men.

There is no textev that wives do anything sexual with each other.

Echoes of Honor, the scene where Alison is talking about what caused Grayson's skewed male/female ratio to Katherine Mayhew, seems to imply that bisexuality is common.

But whether that's strictly between wives, or even just expected between wives, is not specified.

[quote=Echoes of Honor"]"Because not every off-worlder does," Katherine said. She glanced at her husband and her sister wife for a moment, then back at Allison, almost challengingly. "Some seem to find some of our lifestyle 'adjustments' . . . morally offensive."
"If they do, that's their problem, not yours," Allison replied with a shrug. Inwardly, she wondered which off-worlder had been stupid enough to step on Katherine Mayhew's toes . . . and to hope it hadn't been a Manticoran. She didn't think it would have been. For the most part, the Star Kingdom refused to tolerate intolerance, although it was less self-congratulatory about it than Beowulf, but she could call to mind one or two Sphinxians who might have been prudish enough to offend. Given the enormous disparity between male and female births, Grayson attitudes towards homosexuality and bisexuality were inevitable, and Sphinx was by far the most straitlaced of the Star Kingdom's planets. For a horrible moment, Allison wondered if somehow Honor could have—? But no. Her daughter might have been more sexually repressed than Allison would have preferred, but she'd never been a prude or a bigot. [/quote][bold added]

Jonathan_S wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:Actually, we don't know if Grayson (or other) wives engage in sex. The multiple marriage thing was because of the small number of men.

There is no textev that wives do anything sexual with each other.

Echoes of Honor, the scene where Alison is talking about what caused Grayson's skewed male/female ratio to Katherine Mayhew, seems to imply that bisexuality is common.

But whether that's strictly between wives, or even just expected between wives, is not specified.

[quote=Echoes of Honor"]"Because not every off-worlder does," Katherine said. She glanced at her husband and her sister wife for a moment, then back at Allison, almost challengingly. "Some seem to find some of our lifestyle 'adjustments' . . . morally offensive."
"If they do, that's their problem, not yours," Allison replied with a shrug. Inwardly, she wondered which off-worlder had been stupid enough to step on Katherine Mayhew's toes . . . and to hope it hadn't been a Manticoran. She didn't think it would have been. For the most part, the Star Kingdom refused to tolerate intolerance, although it was less self-congratulatory about it than Beowulf, but she could call to mind one or two Sphinxians who might have been prudish enough to offend. Given the enormous disparity between male and female births, Grayson attitudes towards homosexuality and bisexuality were inevitable, and Sphinx was by far the most straitlaced of the Star Kingdom's planets. For a horrible moment, Allison wondered if somehow Honor could have—? But no. Her daughter might have been more sexually repressed than Allison would have preferred, but she'd never been a prude or a bigot.

[bold added][/quote]

You might, and I repeat might, be pushing the boundaries a bit too far. There might be more lesbianism because women not with men might be looking for some source of love and pleasure.

That does not mean it is done within families. Of course, it might well be. RFC has never made it really clear.

Interestingly, I wonder what the attitude would be towards male homosexuality (and I agree that no one would make a real fuss) since that might take two men off the marriage market.

I would guess that things were pretty relaxed in general about sex. In a world where people live very long times, they would want to experiment. And they look good for a really long time/

Now we know Honor and Emily were not having a sexual relationship because of Emily's handicap. Note that somewhere along the line Emily admitted that had things been otherwise she would have been attracted to Honor.

But it also pretty clear that she doesn't even sleep next to Hamish because of all the medical equipment. That should preclude much with Honor. But the feelings the three hold are still valid.

I met a couple yesterday who had been together 63 years. I would guess at their ages there might not be a wild sex life. But you could almost feel the love coming off between them.

ldwechsler wrote:That does not mean it is done within families. Of course, it might well be. RFC has never made it really clear.

Interestingly, I wonder what the attitude would be towards male homosexuality (and I agree that no one would make a real fuss) since that might take two men off the marriage market.

You're right that the quote was abiguous. It didn't actually define what the Grayson attitudes were just that Alison found them unsurprising.

Heck it's possible to assume that they were against it and Alison was hoping that Honor hadn't been offensive about their 'backwards' ways. I'm pretty sure that's not it, but I could see where someone could argue.


I did have a passing thought that Grayson might be less happen with male homosexuality, given their shortage of males. On the other hand remember that over much of their history they had a real population problem, with Steadholders having to limit population growth to what their painfully decontaminated fields could supply (and in extreme cases had to pick who died in a famine situation). So there was a fair amount of their history, where despite the problems of having enough males in the next generation they still had to limit the population. So given population limits maybe they're not opposed to males taking themselves off the reproductive market. (Sure there are probably specific exceptions - Steadholders or their heirs would be strongly pressured to produce a male heir regardless of their own sexual preference; but overall their strained resources might have pressured them towards accepting both male and female homosexuality or bisexuality).



And it's very fortunate that their religion and culture were such that it seems that the twin pressures of low male birth rate and population limits didn't lead to (any significant, or at least mentioned amount of) infanticide of female babies; such as was sometimes reported in China under the 1 child policy