How many naval personnel is there available in Talbott.

pappilon wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Ok, Cimeterres can be deployed and sold to Silesia for systems defense roles. Export versions with less efficient compensators get sold to the Verge. Sure the more powerful drive nodes are exposed, but those don't lead to MDMs. They are another path to ESDMs. SLN already have them.

I really don't see Sarnow wanting to buy Havenite LACs for his new systems in Silesia. Its not like they will become independent systems after all. More like Talbott Sector. Why settle for second best from another system. Buy Cimterres you have to either keep buying missiles from Haven or divert resources to build them, maintaining a double inventory.

Sarnow doesn't have to buy them. The individual system government can. Sarnow can't be everywhere just like Kumalo's ships couldn't be everywhere pre-Monica. Better to have those SDFs use LACs that tempt them into piracy by letting them keep hyper capable units. It's also better than keeping each system completely dependent on the RMN.

PeterZ wrote:

pappilon wrote:
I really don't see Sarnow wanting to buy Havenite LACs for his new systems in Silesia. Its not like they will become independent systems after all. More like Talbott Sector. Why settle for second best from another system. Buy Cimterres you have to either keep buying missiles from Haven or divert resources to build them, maintaining a double inventory.

Sarnow doesn't have to buy them. The individual system government can. Sarnow can't be everywhere just like Kumalo's ships couldn't be everywhere pre-Monica. Better to have those SDFs use LACs that tempt them into piracy by letting them keep hyper capable units. It's also better than keeping each system completely dependent on the RMN.

Sarnow might not allow that. One of the traditional piracy cycles in Silesia is the planetary SDFs, lacking funding, sold off "older" ships without being picky as to who purchased them. Ships would bounce from one SDF to another until they disappeared, only to surface some time later trying to surprise a Manty DD disguised as a freighter.

Allowing independent planetary SDFs in Silesia, may be seen as business as usual, which will allow schnanigians as usual. Unfortunately, giving the Silesian Elites enough rope to hang themselves, will allow a resistance fleet or pirates to form. And Sarnow is definitely trying to stop that capability. For the current period of time (and probably the next period), any Silensian SDF is not going to be independent, but a detatchment of the RMN.

Theemile wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Sarnow doesn't have to buy them. The individual system government can. Sarnow can't be everywhere just like Kumalo's ships couldn't be everywhere pre-Monica. Better to have those SDFs use LACs that tempt them into piracy by letting them keep hyper capable units. It's also better than keeping each system completely dependent on the RMN.

Sarnow might not allow that. One of the traditional piracy cycles in Silesia is the planetary SDFs, lacking funding, sold off "older" ships without being picky as to who purchased them. Ships would bounce from one SDF to another until they disappeared, only to surface some time later trying to surprise a Manty DD disguised as a freighter.

Allowing independent planetary SDFs in Silesia, may be seen as business as usual, which will allow schnanigians as usual. Unfortunately, giving the Silesian Elites enough rope to hang themselves, will allow a resistance fleet or pirates to form. And Sarnow is definitely trying to stop that capability. For the current period of time (and probably the next period), any Silensian SDF is not going to be independent, but a detatchment of the RMN.

That's why the LAC focus. No hyper capable ships but still letting the honest system governments protect their space. Cemeterres are very good for this. They have serious punch but really don't have the endurance to operate beyond their support bases.

Theemile wrote:Sarnow might not allow that. One of the traditional piracy cycles in Silesia is the planetary SDFs, lacking funding, sold off "older" ships without being picky as to who purchased them. Ships would bounce from one SDF to another until they disappeared, only to surface some time later trying to surprise a Manty DD disguised as a freighter.

Allowing independent planetary SDFs in Silesia, may be seen as business as usual, which will allow schnanigians as usual. Unfortunately, giving the Silesian Elites enough rope to hang themselves, will allow a resistance fleet or pirates to form. And Sarnow is definitely trying to stop that capability. For the current period of time (and probably the next period), any Silensian SDF is not going to be independent, but a detatchment of the RMN.

And Manticore already had their half of Silesia for a while before Talbott voted to join Manticore - so they've had longer to install their preferred RMN system defenses. I doubt they'd want or need their Silesian protectorate systems to be running their own SDFs in addition to those RMN controlled pods and LAC bases that should have already been deployed there - not to mention the fleet Sarnow was given to protect Silesia.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:Sarnow might not allow that. One of the traditional piracy cycles in Silesia is the planetary SDFs, lacking funding, sold off "older" ships without being picky as to who purchased them. Ships would bounce from one SDF to another until they disappeared, only to surface some time later trying to surprise a Manty DD disguised as a freighter.

Allowing independent planetary SDFs in Silesia, may be seen as business as usual, which will allow schnanigians as usual. Unfortunately, giving the Silesian Elites enough rope to hang themselves, will allow a resistance fleet or pirates to form. And Sarnow is definitely trying to stop that capability. For the current period of time (and probably the next period), any Silensian SDF is not going to be independent, but a detatchment of the RMN.

And Manticore already had their half of Silesia for a while before Talbott voted to join Manticore - so they've had longer to install their preferred RMN system defenses. I doubt they'd want or need their Silesian protectorate systems to be running their own SDFs in addition to those RMN controlled pods and LAC bases that should have already been deployed there - not to mention the fleet Sarnow was given to protect Silesia.

I tend to agree for those systems that wish to remain protectorates. I wonder how many wish to remain protectorates, though?

Silesia has to recognize that the RMN is offering them a very generous option for a seat at the table. The table that hosts what appears to be the most powerful polities in the galaxy. Not just that but self governance for their local system and a voice in the governance of arguably the most powerful empire in the galaxy.

They can remain subject to the benign autocracy of protector-ship or a participating member of an powerful empire. How many Silesian polities won't find enough politicians who would be very eager to drag their star nation into the Empire of Manticore? My guess is zero.

PeterZ wrote:I tend to agree for those systems that wish to remain protectorates. I wonder how many wish to remain protectorates, though?

Silesia has to recognize that the RMN is offering them a very generous option for a seat at the table. The table that hosts what appears to be the most powerful polities in the galaxy. Not just that but self governance for their local system and a voice in the governance of arguably the most powerful empire in the galaxy.

They can remain subject to the benign autocracy of protector-ship or a participating member of an powerful empire. How many Silesian polities won't find enough politicians who would be very eager to drag their star nation into the Empire of Manticore? My guess is zero.

Unfortunately, We know Sarnow laid down the law, explained what the new reality was, told every body in Silesia that they had a blank slate, and told them the ramifications if they backslid.

We also know that he already has had to forcibly remove many of those planetary leaders because they didn't believe him.

We know it's October 1922, and the Silesians are still protectorates, with no roadmap to member status. Something tells me it's going to be years, and several cycles of Silesian leadership before the new reality full sets in and they stop trying to find ways to game the system to their advantage.

Eventually they will get it. The question is will Honor's kids have the vote before or after that happens.

Theemile wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I tend to agree for those systems that wish to remain protectorates. I wonder how many wish to remain protectorates, though?

Silesia has to recognize that the RMN is offering them a very generous option for a seat at the table. The table that hosts what appears to be the most powerful polities in the galaxy. Not just that but self governance for their local system and a voice in the governance of arguably the most powerful empire in the galaxy.

They can remain subject to the benign autocracy of protector-ship or a participating member of an powerful empire. How many Silesian polities won't find enough politicians who would be very eager to drag their star nation into the Empire of Manticore? My guess is zero.

Unfortunately, We know Sarnow laid down the law, explained what the new reality was, told every body in Silesia that they had a blank slate, and told them the ramifications if they backslid.

We also know that he already has had to forcibly remove many of those planetary leaders because they didn't believe him.

We know it's October 1922, and the Silesians are still protectorates, with no roadmap to member status. Something tells me it's going to be years, and several cycles of Silesian leadership before the new reality full sets in and they stop trying to find ways to game the system to their advantage.

Eventually they will get it. The question is will Honor's kids have the vote before or after that happens.

I agree it will be years. I suspect that it will work out to less than 5. There are significant changes in the marco geopolitical picture since Sarnow was sent to straighten out Silesia.

When Sarnow first went to Silesia, the RMN was stretched very thin and faced an enemy that looked like it could win the war. The Quadrant opening up looked to draw even more resources away from Silesia and add to the list of enemies the SKM has to fend off.

Within a short period of time, the SKM accepted the willing petition of the Talbot systems into the SEM. The terms were very generous and the systems individual sovereignty within their system was largely left alone. The RMN deployed another new weapons system that treated the RHN like a child's punching doll. Haven launched a last ditch effort to defeat the RMN before the new system was more broadly deployed and lost convincingly.

The SLN acted as their usual arrogant selves and pushed the RMN. They got their heads handed to them in their exercise of hubris. Furthermore, the SEM began gaining seriously powerful allies like Haven and Beowulf. Despite a sneak attack by unknown enemies that left them in dire straights.

These new allies are now in a position to destroy the SLN and bring those arrogant SOBs in the Solarian League to their knees. The RMN crushed those amoral bastards in Mesa. They further gained control over 80% of the galaxy's wormhole junctions.

Within 5 years the Silesian systems will see Verge systems joining the Grand Alliance. They'll see Talbot actively participating in the management of the star Empire of Manticore. They'll see investment opportunities abound, but some of those opportunities won't be as lucrative because they are NOT imperial subjects.

Again, how many Silesian systems won't spawn opportunistic politicians arguing to petition the SEM for admittance into the Star Empire? These guys are likely not just politicians either, but true believers in joining the Empire.

PeterZ wrote:I tend to agree for those systems that wish to remain protectorates. I wonder how many wish to remain protectorates, though?

Silesia has to recognize that the RMN is offering them a very generous option for a seat at the table. The table that hosts what appears to be the most powerful polities in the galaxy. Not just that but self governance for their local system and a voice in the governance of arguably the most powerful empire in the galaxy.

They can remain subject to the benign autocracy of protector-ship or a participating member of an powerful empire. How many Silesian polities won't find enough politicians who would be very eager to drag their star nation into the Empire of Manticore? My guess is zero.

Even those systems that wish to become independent, I think they, and Manticore, would be better off if Manticore disbanded their current SDF and later, as part of a path to independance helped them build up a fresh, professional, and hopefully reasonably free of corruption SDF.

Maybe run all the current personnel through treecat assisted debrief and exit interviews, potentially offering service with the RMN for the best and possible jail time for people found to be actively collaborating with pirates (assuming they aren't covered by the amnesty that was used to buy off the current governments). With that, and some job placement help for those in the middle, that would hopefully that would avoid the OIF problem of unemploying the army and letting them disperse throughout the Iraqi population as a pool of disgruntled manpower, somewhat skilled in warfare, and many ripe to become part of a resistance.

Jonathan_S wrote:Even those systems that wish to become independent, I think they, and Manticore, would be better off if Manticore disbanded their current SDF and later, as part of a path to independance helped them build up a fresh, professional, and hopefully reasonably free of corruption SDF.

Maybe run all the current personnel through treecat assisted debrief and exit interviews, potentially offering service with the RMN for the best and possible jail time for people found to be actively collaborating with pirates (assuming they aren't covered by the amnesty that was used to buy off the current governments). With that, and some job placement help for those in the middle, that would hopefully that would avoid the OIF problem of unemploying the army and letting them disperse throughout the Iraqi population as a pool of disgruntled manpower, somewhat skilled in warfare, and many ripe to become part of a resistance.

I don't think that by the end of UH any planet in the former Silesia will be allowed independence. They may be offered a deal similar either to OFS protectorate status or league membership like Talbott's systems.

Any system fighting Sarnow will face destruction/scuttling of all hyper capable hulls. NO the RMN will not be buying Cimterres from Haven to deploy in Silesia. The GA may deploy Havenite units or squadrons to Silesia temporarily until sufficient units can be built to replace them.

The GA much like NATO will work to standardize their munitions just because it simplifies the supply chain. And it will probably not be started well by the end of UH.

pappilon wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Even those systems that wish to become independent, I think they, and Manticore, would be better off if Manticore disbanded their current SDF and later, as part of a path to independance helped them build up a fresh, professional, and hopefully reasonably free of corruption SDF.

Maybe run all the current personnel through treecat assisted debrief and exit interviews, potentially offering service with the RMN for the best and possible jail time for people found to be actively collaborating with pirates (assuming they aren't covered by the amnesty that was used to buy off the current governments). With that, and some job placement help for those in the middle, that would hopefully that would avoid the OIF problem of unemploying the army and letting them disperse throughout the Iraqi population as a pool of disgruntled manpower, somewhat skilled in warfare, and many ripe to become part of a resistance.

I don't think that by the end of UH any planet in the former Silesia will be allowed independence. They may be offered a deal similar either to OFS protectorate status or league membership like Talbott's systems.

Any system fighting Sarnow will face destruction/scuttling of all hyper capable hulls. NO the RMN will not be buying Cimterres from Haven to deploy in Silesia. The GA may deploy Havenite units or squadrons to Silesia temporarily until sufficient units can be built to replace them.

The GA much like NATO will work to standardize their munitions just because it simplifies the supply chain. And it will probably not be started well by the end of UH.

Oh I totally agree that in the 6 months or so until the end of UH that no Silesian system will be granted independence. I was thinking of a minimum time frame of maybe 20 years from the end of hostilities with the League.

So maybe, maybe, we'll see a system or two hold a plebiscite for independence if David gets a chance to write the follow-up arc centered on Honor's kids vs the MAlign.