Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victory]

Fox2! wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Not necessarily shipboard positions. A Doctor is generally considered a "Staff" officer and NOT in the chain of command -- shipboard, an ensign in a Line Officer career track will gain command before a Captain(sg) ship's doctor.

I will probably end up showing my lack of knowledge here, but the USN, as I understand it, has several "kinds" of officers: Unrestricted line, what one normally thinks of as a "real" officer, restricted line, who are specialists in such areas as engineering, intelligence, etc. Rickover was an Engineering Duty officer. And Limited Duty Officers seem to be mustangs who stay in areas related to their enlisted specialty. Which is not to say that Unrestricted Line Officers can not be assigned as engineers, or to other specialties. And there are the "professional" officers, such as physicians, nurses, lawyers, and chaplains.

Almost every military organization has different rules about officer places in the chain of command. I don't think any real world military can be used as an exact model. The RMN (and RHN or SLN) has whatever rules RFC says they have and he can break those rules with whatever exceptions and waivers he chooses.

Weird Harold wrote:

Fox2! wrote:
I will probably end up showing my lack of knowledge here, but the USN, as I understand it, has several "kinds" of officers: Unrestricted line, what one normally thinks of as a "real" officer, restricted line, who are specialists in such areas as engineering, intelligence, etc. Rickover was an Engineering Duty officer. And Limited Duty Officers seem to be mustangs who stay in areas related to their enlisted specialty. Which is not to say that Unrestricted Line Officers can not be assigned as engineers, or to other specialties. And there are the "professional" officers, such as physicians, nurses, lawyers, and chaplains.

Almost every military organization has different rules about officer places in the chain of command. I don't think any real world military can be used as an exact model. The RMN (and RHN or SLN) has whatever rules RFC says they have and he can break those rules with whatever exceptions and waivers he chooses.

Extending on this theme you should also note the difference between peace time policies and the reality of a knock down drag out war. The imperatives of wartime result in all sorts of folks who would never get commissioned or assigned a particular command end up high up the chain.

Weird Harold wrote:

Atticus_of_Amber wrote:Interesting. When you said "staff" I initially thought of the staves of flag officers, but from context I take it you meant non-command support roles on ship?

Not necessarily shipboard positions. A Doctor is generally considered a "Staff" officer and NOT in the chain of command -- shipboard, an ensign in a Line Officer career track will gain command before a Captain(sg) ship's doctor.

Engineers are normally "Staff Officers" aboard ship because they are not in the normal chain of command. Ginger couldn't assume command of Hexapuma until she was formally appointed "acting XO." Once she was tasked as "acting XO" she crossed over to "Line Officer" and then back to "Staff Officer" when she was assigned to HMSS Weyland after Monica. She crossed back to "Line Officer" when she took command of HMS Charles Ward.

If Ginger can be used as an example, the RMN makes no distinction based on specialty between Line and Staff officers, only Line and Staff positions.

A couple of minor nits:

The US Naval Academy no longer requires an engineering degree. People can major in non-engineering subjects like political science. I doubt it is a good idea but it is the "new navy."

And the navy moves people back and forth between line and staff positions. In some armies, like the Russian, a distinction is made between the two but we don't.

My cousin served on a carrier and then was assigned as a trainer on a base in San Diego and then went back to another carrier job.

Note also that in the RMN the Tac track was the quickest way to command but not the only one. If a communicator or astrogator could be in command why not an engineer?

Remember that if there was no way to move over, there would be almost no way for an engineer to move beyond the Commander rank. The XO on the Artremis was a commander and that was a Nike class. The engineering officer would not outrank her.

So chances are there other engineers promoted. Note that while Ginger was surprised, Sinead was not. There were clearly others who were promoted into XO and command roles.

Also note that Ginger was the third ranking officer on the Hexapuma. Yes, she would almost certainly not be asked to move up to a tac position in a battle but that would almost certainly be because her task would be just as challenging.

Just one minor point. I'm not sure that an SD(p) is the best place for a ships captain with almost no tactical training in a fleet engagement, especially against the RHN. Combat damage could well leave that inexperienced person in command of the fleet. Better to put her in command of a destroyer or a CL.

pappilon wrote:Just one minor point. I'm not sure that an SD(p) is the best place for a ships captain with almost no tactical training in a fleet engagement, especially against the RHN. Combat damage could well leave that inexperienced person in command of the fleet. Better to put her in command of a destroyer or a CL.

It is noted early in the series that while an officer might command a destroyer (or other small ship) without attending the Crusher, it it almost unheard of for an officer to command a second ship without passing the Crusher. (aka Advanced Tactics Course.)

Even with wartime exceptions being made, I doubt that anyone would get command of a SD(p) without the Crusher. Probably not (permanent) command of a BC or CA, either -- although temporary command due to battle casualties is always possible.

Weird Harold wrote:Not necessarily shipboard positions. A Doctor is generally considered a "Staff" officer and NOT in the chain of command -- shipboard, an ensign in a Line Officer career track will gain command before a Captain(sg) ship's doctor.

Engineers are normally "Staff Officers" aboard ship because they are not in the normal chain of command. Ginger couldn't assume command of Hexapuma until she was formally appointed "acting XO." Once she was tasked as "acting XO" she crossed over to "Line Officer" and then back to "Staff Officer" when she was assigned to HMSS Weyland after Monica. She crossed back to "Line Officer" when she took command of HMS Charles Ward.

If Ginger can be used as an example, the RMN makes no distinction based on specialty between Line and Staff officers, only Line and Staff positions.

Bold mine.

I don't think Ginger had to be formally appointed acting XO. IMHO, she become the acting XO because she was next in the chain of command after Commander FitzGerald. I've been re-reading the series in an attempt to stem off withdraw symptoms and came across this quote from On Basilisk Station.

On Basilisk Station wrote:"The thing is, Skipper, I've known Alistair McKeon for a long time," Santos went on quietly. "He's a friend—and I'm your next senior officer"
Honor sighed and leaned back. She ought to shut Santos up, she thought. If there was one thing she hated, it was discussing an officer behind his back, especially with one of his juniors. But she was very nearly at the end of her rope where McKeon was concerned. She'd tried everything she could think of to reach him—to make him the true second–in–command she needed, not simply an efficient, perpetually unengaged automaton—and failed. And there was no malice or spite in Santos's voice, only concern. Besides Dominica was right she was Honor's next most senior officer, third in Fearless's chain of command, with not just the right but the duty to speak up if she saw a problem.

Italics the author. Bold mine.

Also, IIRC, the first time we see Paul Tankersley, also in OBS, he was Warlord's executive officer, but by the time of his next appearance, in TSVW, he was an engineer, a yard dog, at Hancock Station.

So in the Honorverse, or at least in the RMN, engineers are, or at least can be, line officers. It occurs to me that while Ginger was commissioned by going through OCS, Tankersley went through the Academy. And academy graduates, even those who plan to be engineers, probably all take some tactical courses. Since we haven't actually seen how the OCS operates we can't know if Ginger ever had even minimal tactical training.

There are weird rules in the US navy about command succession when you get the various types of officers involved. Basically they attempt to avoid putting high ranking but likely highly unqualified officers in charge. Like the ship surgeon. It’s likely there are similar ones in the RMN.

glott wrote:I don't think Ginger had to be formally appointed acting XO. IMHO, she become the acting XO because she was next in the chain of command after Commander FitzGerald.

Actually, I think Naomi Kaplan, the Tac Officer, was next in the chain. I don't recall the full complement of officers on Hexapuma. But, IIRC there is textev that Ginger was tapped as acting XO because she was the senior healthy officer, not because she was next in the chain of command.

Don't forget Samuel Webster (on the original Fearless), was in the communication track, served as Rear Admiral Mark Sarnow's staff communication officer (SVW) then went onto command a Q-ship HMAMC Scheherazade as the JG Captain (HAE), then went on to become a Rear Admiral, and was given command of Battle Squadron 16 in Task Force 34 (WoH)

So it doesn't seem like the RMN makes a distinction between career tracks and eventual positions

kzt wrote:There are weird rules in the US navy about command succession when you get the various types of officers involved. Basically they attempt to avoid putting high ranking but likely highly unqualified officers in charge. Like the ship surgeon. It’s likely there are similar ones in the RMN.

Non line officers are completely outside the chain of command. You could have a Fleet Admiral medical branch officer aboard a ship as a ships surgeon and if the entire chain of command was wiped out except for a boot ensign that boot ensign will be in command.

An RW example is the USS Alwyn a destroyer that broke out during the Pearl Harbor attack she was commanded by three ensigns IIRC 1LT DCA and AGO, even though a LT. was on board as supply officer. The SupO was senior by two grades but was not in command. The 1LT was in command for a week.