Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victory]

Ginger Lewis's promotion to Captain (JG) and her appointment as the CO of the "fast support ship" Charles Ward got me thinking.

Ginger was of course an inspired choice for the CW after it lost all of its senior officers, given her engineering speciality and her command baptism-by-fire as the acting XO of the Hexapuma. But it also made me wonder about the careers of engineering officers once they're promoted beyond Commander.

It appears that currently in RMN a specialist engineering officer advances by either managing the engineering department of larger and more complex ships or being a yard dog until they hit the rank of Captain. Once they reach Captain (JG), they end up in command or as XO of a yard and that is effectively the end of their shipboard careers. If they reach flag rank, it's normally as an officer at a major yard or in BuShips or BuWeaps, unless their skills are for some reason required on the staff of a task group, task force or fleet.

For most "grease moneys" this is a perfectly satisfactory career path. But there have to be quite a few engineers who are talented leaders and are at least competent (though not inspired) tacticians. Are they perhaps being overlooked as potential warship commanders?

Assuming we are talking about engineering specialists of Captain rank who are talented leaders and at least competent (but not inspired) tacticians, where would you put them?

First, and most obviously, repair and service vessels like the CW.

But secondly, and a little less intuitively, a great place for them is as CLAC skipppers. Think about it: A CLAC is basically a giant repair and maintenance ship designed to service about 100 LACs. And, although it has excellent defensive systems (and maybe some moderately formidable chase armament), it has no business being in combat unless something has gone dreadfully wrong or its packed tightly into a larger wall of battle and only acting to thicken the CM defence net.

My third thought is even less intuitive and perhaps controversial: Superdreadnoughts. SDs almost never operate as singletons, rarely in divisions and usually in massed squadrons. The key tactician in an SD force is going to be the squadron commander, the vice-admiral in charge of all the SDs or the CO of the task force or fleet, not an individual captain. Oddly, SD command might actually be a good role for an engineering specialist who is a Captain (JG), since that low a rank would pretty much guarantee that squadron command would never devolve to her anyway. And given their size and the complexities of the pod-naught rail systems, SDs are a HUGE engineering challenge just to maintain.

Now, none of this says the RMN should start *preferring* engineers as COs for its CLACs and SDs. Tactical specialists are always going to make up the bulk of warship COs. But given the manpower constraints suffered by the RMN, engineers with leadership talent, like Ginger Lewis, may be an untapped source for new CLAC and SD COs in the future.

And can't you just see Scotty Tremaine returning to the LAC community as Rear Admiral of a CLAC squadron to discover Ginger Lewis as his new flag captain?

Its a good thought. End of the day someone who makes a brilliant engineer just might be brilliant, and would excel in whatever role they chose.

Sonja Hemphill is a prime example of this, she is considered a quite capable tactician, even though she really is more valuable in R&D. I was going to use Honor as my example but I remembered she has this weird blind spot with mathmatics, even if she should be good at that as well.

That being said there are plenty of pure R&D types, like those poor homeless souls on Wesland who would be a catastrophic disaster in a command role.


And yes, I agree that Ginger has shown all the makings of an excellent CLAC Captain, and I would not be shocked to find her given one in the not to distant future.

If you want to get right down to it, in the 20th and 21st Century most officers in Western navies are university or equivalent (service Academy) graduates with advanced degrees in one or more fields of engineering, so strictly speaking most are "engineers."

The ships today, surface and submarine are highly complex machines so it stands to reason that ... well, read on.

A fairly percentage are also graduates of the Navy's Nuclear Power school and are credentialed to be able to operate a nuclear power plant. A number of these officers do of course serve in submarines (SSN / SSBN) in positions all the way up to Commanding Officer or in CVNs as other than CO.

A number of them also find themselves (without necessarily desiring it) in the surface Navy serving as Division Officers, Department Heads or Executive Officer in destroyers, cruisers and carriers but NEVER in command of a carrier, that position by law MUST go to an aviator, usually a pilot and even most pilots are graduates of some aeronautical engineering school or Academy.

So what is this nonsense about "Engineers" not being able to serve as Line Officers? Even in Star Trek engineering officers could qualify to command a ship (else Scotty couldn't command Enterprise while Kirk (CO) and Spock (XO) were off ship somewhere getting into trouble. )

You have no idea if an engineer is a competent tactician. It's not what they do. It's not what they have ever done. And if you have never done something in a real-world application you have no idea how you'd do it under pressure.

What they do is demanding, complex and essential, but it's very different than commanding a major ship or a squadron in combat. Just like being an expert at commanding ships in combat does not make you particularly qualified at rapidly and effectively clearing a building full of armed hostiles holding hostages. And vice versa.

Note that Pavel Young passed ATC. It was only when his well-bred ass was really on the line that he couldn't handle it.

robert132 wrote:If you want to get right down to it, in the 20th and 21st Century most officers in Western navies are university or equivalent (service Academy) graduates with advanced degrees in one or more fields of engineering, so strictly speaking most are "engineers."

The ships today, surface and submarine are highly complex machines so it stands to reason that ... well, read on.

A fairly percentage are also graduates of the Navy's Nuclear Power school and are credentialed to be able to operate a nuclear power plant. A number of these officers do of course serve in submarines (SSN / SSBN) in positions all the way up to Commanding Officer or in CVNs as other than CO.

A number of them also find themselves (without necessarily desiring it) in the surface Navy serving as Division Officers, Department Heads or Executive Officer in destroyers, cruisers and carriers but NEVER in command of a carrier, that position by law MUST go to an aviator, usually a pilot and even most pilots are graduates of some aeronautical engineering school or Academy.

So what is this nonsense about "Engineers" not being able to serve as Line Officers? Even in Star Trek engineering officers could qualify to command a ship (else Scotty couldn't command Enterprise while Kirk (CO) and Spock (XO) were off ship somewhere getting into trouble. )

The XO of a CVN is usually her next commanding officer, or the next commanding officer of some other carrier, in training. I suspect the same is true of the gator navy 'baby carriers," especially of the America subclass, which don't have a well-deck.

robert132 wrote:If you want to get right down to it, in the 20th and 21st Century most officers in Western navies are university or equivalent (service Academy) graduates with advanced degrees in one or more fields of engineering, so strictly speaking most are "engineers."

That certainly sounds like what happens at Saganami Island -
everybody does astrogation, advanced maths, etc. It sounds like they all get a B.Eng. But, as I understand it, modern naval academies also offer BAs in humanities and social sciences to future naval officers...

A number of them also find themselves (without necessarily desiring it) in the surface Navy serving as Division Officers, Department Heads or Executive Officer in destroyers, cruisers and carriers but NEVER in command of a carrier, that position by law MUST go to an aviator, usually a pilot and even most pilots are graduates of some aeronautical engineering school or Academy.

Interesting. I thought, while the CAG had to be an aviator (obviously), the carrier captain could be an ordinary shipmaster? But maybe I got that idea in my head because thats how it works with CLACs in the Honorverse. You'd know better.

So what is this nonsense about "Engineers" not being able to serve as Line Officers? Even in Star Trek engineering officers could qualify to command a ship (else Scotty couldn't command Enterprise while Kirk (CO) and Spock (XO) were off ship somewhere getting into trouble. )

Well, I'm sure you're right about modern "wet" navies. But the RMN as portrayed in the Honorverse seems to largely reserve warship CO roles for officers who've specialised in the tactical officer track. My point is that this may be a little shortsighted. Yes, destroyers and cruisers and even battlecruisers (and certainly LAC squadrons and wings) need to have a tactics nerd as their CO. But for the COs of CLACs and SDs, tactical excellence (as opposed to mere tactical competence) strikes me as a less essential element in their required skillset. In other words, if what you say about the US navy is correct, I'm saying the RMN needs to be more like the USN.

Atticus_of_Amber wrote:Well, I'm sure you're right about modern "wet" navies. But the RMN as portrayed in the Honorverse seems to largely reserve warship CO roles for officers who've specialised in the tactical officer track.

Just to throw a small monkey wrench into the works -- the RMN does not seem to make a distinction between "Line Officer" and "Staff Officer." In fact we are explicitly told they rotate officers between Line and Staff (operational and administrative) positions to prevent "empire building." (aka over-specialization.)

In the case of Ginger Lewis, she has progressed from junior NCO through senior NCO, Mustang OCS, to senior engineering officer (staff), to Starship commander (Line.) If the RMN does make any distinction between Line and Staff, Ginger has "crossed over" into the "Line Officer" career track. She quite possibly could see a trip through the "Crusher" as her next assignment, although she could continue in command of HMS Charles Ward for quite a long time during wartime operations. It sort of depends on how many "empty boots" the RMN is going to need filled as the war progresses.

Weird Harold wrote:

Atticus_of_Amber wrote:Well, I'm sure you're right about modern "wet" navies. But the RMN as portrayed in the Honorverse seems to largely reserve warship CO roles for officers who've specialised in the tactical officer track.

Just to throw a small monkey wrench into the works -- the RMN does not seem to make a distinction between "Line Officer" and "Staff Officer." In fact we are explicitly told they rotate officers between Line and Staff (operational and administrative) positions to prevent "empire building." (aka over-specialization.)

In the case of Ginger Lewis, she has progressed from junior NCO through senior NCO, Mustang OCS, to senior engineering officer (staff), to Starship commander (Line.) If the RMN does make any distinction between Line and Staff, Ginger has "crossed over" into the "Line Officer" career track. She quite possibly could see a trip through the "Crusher" as her next assignment, although she could continue in command of HMS Charles Ward for quite a long time during wartime operations. It sort of depends on how many "empty boots" the RMN is going to need filled as the war progresses.

Interesting. When you said "staff" I initially thought of the staves of flag officers, but from context I take it you meant non-command support roles on ship?

Atticus_of_Amber wrote:Interesting. When you said "staff" I initially thought of the staves of flag officers, but from context I take it you meant non-command support roles on ship?

Not necessarily shipboard positions. A Doctor is generally considered a "Staff" officer and NOT in the chain of command -- shipboard, an ensign in a Line Officer career track will gain command before a Captain(sg) ship's doctor.

Engineers are normally "Staff Officers" aboard ship because they are not in the normal chain of command. Ginger couldn't assume command of Hexapuma until she was formally appointed "acting XO." Once she was tasked as "acting XO" she crossed over to "Line Officer" and then back to "Staff Officer" when she was assigned to HMSS Weyland after Monica. She crossed back to "Line Officer" when she took command of HMS Charles Ward.

If Ginger can be used as an example, the RMN makes no distinction based on specialty between Line and Staff officers, only Line and Staff positions.

Weird Harold wrote:

Atticus_of_Amber wrote:Interesting. When you said "staff" I initially thought of the staves of flag officers, but from context I take it you meant non-command support roles on ship?

Not necessarily shipboard positions. A Doctor is generally considered a "Staff" officer and NOT in the chain of command -- shipboard, an ensign in a Line Officer career track will gain command before a Captain(sg) ship's doctor.

Engineers are normally "Staff Officers" aboard ship because they are not in the normal chain of command. Ginger couldn't assume command of Hexapuma until she was formally appointed "acting XO." Once she was tasked as "acting XO" she crossed over to "Line Officer" and then back to "Staff Officer" when she was assigned to HMSS Weyland after Monica. She crossed back to "Line Officer" when she took command of HMS Charles Ward.

If Ginger can be used as an example, the RMN makes no distinction based on specialty between Line and Staff officers, only Line and Staff positions.

I will probably end up showing my lack of knowledge here, but the USN, as I understand it, has several "kinds" of officers: Unrestricted line, what one normally thinks of as a "real" officer, restricted line, who are specialists in such areas as engineering, intelligence, etc. Rickover was an Engineering Duty officer. And Limited Duty Officers seem to be mustangs who stay in areas related to their enlisted specialty. Which is not to say that Unrestricted Line Officers can not be assigned as engineers, or to other specialties. And there are the "professional" officers, such as physicians, nurses, lawyers, and chaplains.

Ginger would (most likely) have been either an Engineering Duty Officer, or an Engineering LDO, if she was not equivalent to an Unrestricted Line Officer. And then "the needs of the service" pressed her into duty as Hexapuma's XO, which put her on BuPers' radar screen when Charles Ward needed an engineer with a head for command after her assigned commander was killed during Oyster Bay.