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Bluesqueak wrote:Um.

I think you're underestimating the effect on Manticore of an effective civil war in the government and the Navy.

Is that what Honor would have wanted? Really? As they faced Haven, would she have wanted the knowledge that she had ( okay, Young had, but Honor would've blamed herself, because she does) broken the officer corps of the RMN into two warring factions?

Hemphill did the best she could; quite probably because she was able to see the two sides more clearly because by family she belongs to the Navy of Patronage, but her ability inducted her into the Navy of Duty and Ability. She sought a compromise that left both sides partly satisfied. The Navy of Patronage was left with Young's life, the Navy of Duty no longer had to serve with someone so clearly unfit to be an officer. And Honor's honour was satisfied; there was a conviction.

And it would have worked, too, if Young hadn't been such a psycho, and certain sections of the Manticoran aristocracy hadn't had rather extensive entries in the North Hollow files. They dumped on her because she'd killed one of their own.

The other thing you're underestimating is that there's plenty of evidence that everyone knew in advance that the duel would ruin Honor's career. People live in Manticore and they know the unwritten rules. They know that if you annoy certain sections of the aristocracy, your career WILL suffer. I mean, if duelling was legal in the UK and I decided to challenge Prince Edward, my career would be toast. However justified I was, however technically legal, I would be toast. Them's the unwritten rules.

roseandheather wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:Um.

I think you're underestimating the effect on Manticore of an effective civil war in the government and the Navy.

Is that what Honor would have wanted? Really? As they faced Haven, would she have wanted the knowledge that she had ( okay, Young had, but Honor would've blamed herself, because she does) broken the officer corps of the RMN into two warring factions?

Hemphill did the best she could; quite probably because she was able to see the two sides more clearly because by family she belongs to the Navy of Patronage, but her ability inducted her into the Navy of Duty and Ability. She sought a compromise that left both sides partly satisfied. The Navy of Patronage was left with Young's life, the Navy of Duty no longer had to serve with someone so clearly unfit to be an officer. And Honor's honour was satisfied; there was a conviction.

And it would have worked, too, if Young hadn't been such a psycho, and certain sections of the Manticoran aristocracy hadn't had rather extensive entries in the North Hollow files. They dumped on her because she'd killed one of their own.

The other thing you're underestimating is that there's plenty of evidence that everyone knew in advance that the duel would ruin Honor's career. People live in Manticore and they know the unwritten rules. They know that if you annoy certain sections of the aristocracy, your career WILL suffer. I mean, if duelling was legal in the UK and I decided to challenge Prince Edward, my career would be toast. However justified I was, however technically legal, I would be toast. Them's the unwritten rules.

::STANDING OVATION::

ldwechsler wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:Um.

I think you're underestimating the effect on Manticore of an effective civil war in the government and the Navy.

Is that what Honor would have wanted? Really? As they faced Haven, would she have wanted the knowledge that she had ( okay, Young had, but Honor would've blamed herself, because she does) broken the officer corps of the RMN into two warring factions?

Hemphill did the best she could; quite probably because she was able to see the two sides more clearly because by family she belongs to the Navy of Patronage, but her ability inducted her into the Navy of Duty and Ability. She sought a compromise that left both sides partly satisfied. The Navy of Patronage was left with Young's life, the Navy of Duty no longer had to serve with someone so clearly unfit to be an officer. And Honor's honour was satisfied; there was a conviction.

And it would have worked, too, if Young hadn't been such a psycho, and certain sections of the Manticoran aristocracy hadn't had rather extensive entries in the North Hollow files. They dumped on her because she'd killed one of their own.

The other thing you're underestimating is that there's plenty of evidence that everyone knew in advance that the duel would ruin Honor's career. People live in Manticore and they know the unwritten rules. They know that if you annoy certain sections of the aristocracy, your career WILL suffer. I mean, if duelling was legal in the UK and I decided to challenge Prince Edward, my career would be toast. However justified I was, however technically legal, I would be toast. Them's the unwritten rules.

roseandheather wrote:::STANDING OVATION::

I think you're too forgiving of Hemphill. It was not that she "could see both sides." She knew the disaster that would follow if Young were found not guilty.

The navy would suffer terribly. The people on the board would have been shunned. I would guess there would be no more promotions and no more assignments. The sailors in general would have been furious.

It would have been a disaster for that group. Of course, the Queen would never forgive them. And neither would most of the navy as well as the Commons.

Hemphill was aware of all of that. Of course, Honor was able to go to Grayson and was even more of a hero.

And I would bet by this time that the Conservatives were really out of power and there were far fewer Progressives (who were only interested in power so would not want to oppose the leaders). Also, the Commons has more power and St Martin is now in the Lords.

While Honor might pay little attention to some details, I would bet she enjoys watching those who went after her suffer.

And Hemphill, who did arrange the compromise, now works with her husband.


There was always a tension between the Lords and the Commons and this could have really created a mess. I would have loved to see what the Centrist leaders in the Commons were saying at this time.

PeterZ wrote:I think you're too forgiving of Hemphill. It was not that she "could see both sides." She knew the disaster that would follow if Young were found not guilty.

The navy would suffer terribly. The people on the board would have been shunned. I would guess there would be no more promotions and no more assignments. The sailors in general would have been furious.

It would have been a disaster for that group. Of course, the Queen would never forgive them. And neither would most of the navy as well as the Commons.

Hemphill was aware of all of that. Of course, Honor was able to go to Grayson and was even more of a hero.

And I would bet by this time that the Conservatives were really out of power and there were far fewer Progressives (who were only interested in power so would not want to oppose the leaders). Also, the Commons has more power and St Martin is now in the Lords.

While Honor might pay little attention to some details, I would bet she enjoys watching those who went after her suffer.

And Hemphill, who did arrange the compromise, now works with her husband.


There was always a tension between the Lords and the Commons and this could have really created a mess. I would have loved to see what the Centrist leaders in the Commons were saying at this time.

pappilon wrote:
I think the only credit Red Sonja should get is for finally swallowing her personal animosity toward HH, and making a compromise "for the good of The Service." At that moment in time she was one of the privileged who gained from the right of the nobility to promote their own regardless of actual competence, as rank doth indeed have its privilege. She, maybe, gets credit for reluctantly conceding that maybeHarrington actually made the right call and Young made the wrong one. Unfortunately she couldn't quite get to the wrong decision was cowardice in the face of the enemy. Not much credit there, defending her own against the commoner dirt.

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I believe Red Sonja wanted first to protect the Navy King Roger enlisted her to rebuild. She gave her life to that goal. She saw her King muderred rebuilding his Navy and she would sacrifice anyone or anything to ensure King Roger's sacrifice was not in vain. Sad as it might be, Honor Harrington's was worth keeping the navy as intact as possible. Getting Young out was automatic.

Jonathan_S wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I believe Red Sonja wanted first to protect the Navy King Roger enlisted her to rebuild. She gave her life to that goal. She saw her King muderred rebuilding his Navy and she would sacrifice anyone or anything to ensure King Roger's sacrifice was not in vain. Sad as it might be, Honor Harrington's was worth keeping the navy as intact as possible. Getting Young out was automatic.

And the apparent sacrifice on Honor's part appeared, without the benefit of precog, to be minor.

White Haven had suggested she take a little time to make an Steadholder visit to Grayon during the trial, to cut down on how much direct flak she'd take from the Conservative's press leading up to, and during the trial. So you'd assume Young gets dishonorable kicked out of the navy and rots planetside (not even in Lords nor with access to the Northridge files; since you'd expect his father to live for many more years). Honor comes back at the end of her leave and gets to be Admiral Mondeau's flag captains in a BC squadron assigned to White Haven's 3rd fleet; the fleet tasked with the majority of the RMN's current offensive operations.

The trial and cashiering of Pavel would barely have been a minor blip to her carrier.

I seriously doubt Earl Dimitri Young would be willing to expend any leverage or resources in a real vendetta against Honor; not when he knew Pavel had fucked up and he'd succeeded in saving Pavel's life. (Now if the board voted to execute that might have kicked off vendetta time) It was Dimitri dropping dead that gave Pavel the resources and ability to pursue his insane vendetta against Honor and cause all that grief.


From a military justice point of view Lord Pavel Young deserved to be executed. But nobody could have predicted the fallout from sparing him in order to get cooperation on the critically needed declaration of war.

Jonathan_S wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I believe Red Sonja wanted first to protect the Navy King Roger enlisted her to rebuild. She gave her life to that goal. She saw her King muderred rebuilding his Navy and she would sacrifice anyone or anything to ensure King Roger's sacrifice was not in vain. Sad as it might be, Honor Harrington's was worth keeping the navy as intact as possible. Getting Young out was automatic.

And the apparent sacrifice on Honor's part appeared, without the benefit of precog, to be minor.

White Haven had suggested she take a little time to make an Steadholder visit to Grayon during the trial, to cut down on how much direct flak she'd take from the Conservative's press leading up to, and during the trial. So you'd assume Young gets dishonorable kicked out of the navy and rots planetside (not even in Lords nor with access to the Northridge files; since you'd expect his father to live for many more years). Honor comes back at the end of her leave and gets to be Admiral Mondeau's flag captains in a BC squadron assigned to White Haven's 3rd fleet; the fleet tasked with the majority of the RMN's current offensive operations.

The trial and cashiering of Pavel would barely have been a minor blip to her carrier.

I seriously doubt Earl Dimitri Young would be willing to expend any leverage or resources in a real vendetta against Honor; not when he knew Pavel had fucked up and he'd succeeded in saving Pavel's life. (Now if the board voted to execute that might have kicked off vendetta time) It was Dimitri dropping dead that gave Pavel the resources and ability to pursue his insane vendetta against Honor and cause all that grief.


From a military justice point of view Lord Pavel Young deserved to be executed. But nobody could have predicted the fallout from sparing him in order to get cooperation on the critically needed declaration of war.

n7axw wrote:I agree with Jonathan's post. The need for the war declaration meant that there were larger issues than what happened to Pavel Young. The need to bring the officer corp together had to happen and Sonja's vote made it possible.

I think that it is a misreading of the text to assume that Sonja had a vendetta against Harrington. There is no doubt but what she was frustrated the day of the fleet exercise. But that wasn't directed at Honor nearly so much as at having the grav lance crap out. It wasn't Sonja, but Janecek who got Honor exiled to Basilisk.

Something that needs to be said here. Along with King Roger and Admiral Adcock, it was Sonja's brilliance, commitment, and energy that made the Star Kingdom's survival and eventual victory possible against the Peeps. Even Hamish eventually had to admit that.

Don

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