Honorverse ramblings and musings

PeterZ wrote:Peter Z wrote:

What makes you think they are not good guys even if I am right and they are star line descendants or even MAlign members? RFC has been trying to make the MAlign more sympathetic in many ways. Why not show some of their star lines' offspring who have not completely embraced the MAlign? There are many directions this can take. We already know he planted a star line descendent in the group we already think of as the good guys. So how much of this musing is conspiracy theory?
Again, I don't think this is beyond the pale.

ldwechsler wrote:In a way, we are wandering. If MAlign planted star line people without their knowing it, they are no longer MAlign. What do you do? Go up to someone and tell them that their genes have been upgraded and will you please betray everyone and everything you love?

We know about O'Hanrahan, of course. And there may be others. But we have had quite a few point of view characters and none have shown any inclination towards helping MAlign. The ones on Haven are so random, considering the revolution(s) that they were probably not planted.

The Manticorans we've dealt with have essentially been very anti-MAlign. Unless RFC really wants to do something wild, I can't see anything else really matter. Although it might be interesting if Berry were somehow a part of a forgotten line since we are told she is so remarkably sane.

Absolutely. Let's go further still, shall we?
We know that not all MAlign agree that the ends the MAlign seek are not worth the means being used. Jack McBryde front and center.

Now we go back to Maya. We have Barregos setting up his sepoy option because he cares for those he is responsible for. He has empathy for them.....much like Jack McBryde. He will do his best to protect his people, to provide his people with all the benefits he can beg borrow or steal from the Solarian League. I have never doubted this.

My questions arise when I considered what a good MAlign plant building a wing of the Renaissance Factor would do? Not much different. The only variable that is different is that Barregos is in the Verge or Fringe, not the Core where it appears the other RF systems are. Is this planned or did Barregos decide to retask his mission to help those that need it more than Core world patricians? Perhaps he was tasked from the start to be the light in the Verge darkness once Manticore and Haven are destroyed?

All these goals are best served by having someone who empathizes powerfully with people and has the charisma to draw them in. That however is a two edged sword as Jack McBryde proved. Regardless of what the original plan might be, is Barregos playing along?

Weird Harold wrote:

lyonheart wrote:She can't civilize them, and she can't leave them alone, so what's left?

The terrible decision may kill her, whatever the majority of surviving humans that agrees with her decision, simply never ever again.

I hope such a scenario turns out to only be a nightmare, and that Hamish can comfort and cuddle her, but I fear that great moral dilemma is headed for someone, perhaps Abigail or her children.

Granted a blockade might work if the survivors can afford it, blockades being rather expensive, but I doubt the survivors are going to let any such thoroughly indoctrinated MAlign planet they catch live.

The problem of Darius is virtually the same as the problem of Masada. It is going to take a generations long blockade to make a significant dent in the brain-washed masses.

These are the answers I so pondered as well. And I sought assistance in obtaining such answers from the masses, here.

ldwechsler wrote:Let's get real. This matchmaking is getting a bit nuts. We don't even know if a lot of these people are married. We don't know marital status or sexual interest in most characters. Is Hamish's brother, the Prime Minister, married? Is Westman? Matsuko?

But there is a push to tie up everything. This is not a Hallmark Romance! (For those not in America, the Hallmark TV channel puts on a lot of romance stories and they always end happily). Yes, it would be nice to see Abigail married or at least in love. And how about Cardones? Actually, Abigail and Oversteegan might be interesting in a few years. Why not Eloise and Theisman?

Let it be. For a complete list of future events, either RFC should put in an epilogue that describes the future or all of them or we can wait until the next arc, a number of years down the road and find out at least about some of them.

If we keep on with romances, we won't have any battles or even dastardly plots. And, yes, a child of Victor with Thandi would be interesting. And why not another little Zilwicki?

The common nature of man to play matchmaker isn't silly. We are really a lovable species when we're not killing and eating each other. It is our God given right. It is our pleasure and duty. If we, as humans, see someone else's soulmate, it would be appalling and irresponsible not to tell them. Unless you or someone else in your life are in love with one of the above, or have important designs on one of the above -- you know, the soap opera kind of reasons -- then it would be in your best interest to play Cupid. Soul mates finding each other makes the world a better place to live in. Don't you wish to live in a better place?

Playing Cupid is simply in our nature. Don't tell me you've never requested a wingman. Or a wing woman. My sisters could always play the part well.

For all of the times we've flown interesting and fruitful missions of love together sisters, I thank you. Both for being the wind beneath my wings, wingman err wing women, AND for introducing me to... let's call them... crushes. Shall we? You've never had a "wing man" until you've had a "wing woman."

It is simply how the game is humanly played.

Also. A lack of textev stating previous marital commitments, leaves hope. Let's keep hope alive.

"Fixing" Darius is going to be hard. They'll probably get told about how Manticore just massacred a bunch of people on Mesa for funnzies. I wouldn't be surprised if Darius's response to any Manticorian attack is "You attack us we systematically exterminate your planetary populations via stealthed missiles fired from extreme range. We have ships stashed in hyper to do exactly that. Turn back."

Even on a less bad scenario "fixing" Darius will basically be impossible. They've basically been told that the rest of the Universe is out to get them so invasion will prove that. Without heavy* oppression they'll just continue on with their bio-singularity, which has far too many ways to end exceptionally poorly for Manticore. You could try showing them the world, except it will be far to easy to make Beowulf and Manticore out to be the baddies, especially if they are handing down restrictions and KEWs from orbit. Plus the people on Darius might very well have a limitless life expectancy. Between their innate improved genetics, 3rd generation prolong, prolong boosters and whatever else they can cook up in the future, they may have already hit actuarial escape velocity.

Finally, if I was the MAlign I would do my level best to make Darius lethal for outsiders. My first idea would be to ramp up everyone's immune system, and then hope evolution makes a better virus. If nature doesn't oblige genetically engineer some helpful bacteria for the people's microbiomes that just happens to kill people without the enhanced immune system. Possibly a type of bacteria that can make yogurt. Nothing destroy's morale like seeing your comrades turn into delicious, delicious yogurt.

*From Darius's point of view. They'll almost certainly consider any attempt to restrict making children the Darius Way(TM) an unthinkable atrocity. Plus restricting medical sciences would also be viewed as the height of evil. And those are what you need for the bio-singularity.

ldwechsler wrote:The Manticorans we've dealt with have essentially been very anti-MAlign. Unless RFC really wants to do something wild, I can't see anything else really matter. Although it might be interesting if Berry were somehow a part of a forgotten line since we are told she is so remarkably sane.

Given that Berry and Lars' parentage is completely unknown, I'd say that it's odds-on that they're genies. It's not just Berry's remarkable sanity in the face of extensive abuse; Lars (who's also suffered extreme trauma) seems equally sane, and is described as unusually attractive to girls.

So both of them seem to have an ability to persuade people to do what they want; both are stable in the face of trauma. Possibly they're the descendants of an escaped genetic slave (who was the product of some experiments), though, rather than star lines as such.

Bluesqueak wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:The Manticorans we've dealt with have essentially been very anti-MAlign. Unless RFC really wants to do something wild, I can't see anything else really matter. Although it might be interesting if Berry were somehow a part of a forgotten line since we are told she is so remarkably sane.

Given that Berry and Lars' parentage is completely unknown, I'd say that it's odds-on that they're genies. It's not just Berry's remarkable sanity in the face of extensive abuse; Lars (who's also suffered extreme trauma) seems equally sane, and is described as unusually attractive to girls.

So both of them seem to have an ability to persuade people to do what they want; both are stable in the face of trauma. Possibly they're the descendants of an escaped genetic slave (who was the product of some experiments), though, rather than star lines as such.

Barry and Lars had extensive psychological help. With Cathy's help the best money could buy.

pappilon wrote:Maybe you should start a new topic? Lost Star Line Conspiracy Theories.

I'd like to think some of the good guys are really good guys.

Peter Z wrote:

What makes you think they are not good guys even if I am right and they are star line descendants or even MAlign members? RFC has been trying to make the MAlign more sympathetic in many ways. Why not show some of their star lines' offspring who have not completely embraced the MAlign? There are many directions this can take. We already know he planted a star line descendent in the group we already think of as the good guys. So how much of this musing is conspiracy theory?
Again, I don't think this is beyond the pale.[/quote]

In a way, we are wandering. If MAlign planted star line people without their knowing it, they are no longer MAlign. What do you do? Go up to someone and tell them that their genes have been upgraded and will you please betray everyone and everything you love?

We know about O'Hanrahan, of course. And there may be others. But we have had quite a few point of view characters and none have shown any inclination towards helping MAlign. The ones on Haven are so random, considering the revolution(s) that they were probably not planted.

The Manticorans we've dealt with have essentially been very anti-MAlign. Unless RFC really wants to do something wild, I can't see anything else really matter. Although it might be interesting if Berry were somehow a part of a forgotten line since we are told she is so remarkably sane.[/quote]

The members of the MAlign (aka Onioneers)are a distinct and very tiny subset of All The Alpha and/or Star Line populace of Mesa and everywhere else.

Each and every Alpha and Beta citizen of Mesa that was Left Behind (Tim LaHaye & Jerry B. Jenkins)is NOT a member of the MAlign. They missed The Rapture, they did not make the cut, they are not valuable enough to the Onion to be carried to the Promised Land. Indeed, they never knew of the promised land.

O'Hanrahan is an Alpha line, we know. Are we knowing or merely assuming she is also an Onioneer? Textev would suggest she is not. All she gets is email from "the front office" telling her where to go and where to stay. No direct contact with Albrecht or B->G clones.

Barregos talking about Operation Sepoy has nothing to do with The Onion, Malign or alpha lines, lost or no. We have DIRECT textev that a shooting war with SEM was a planned outcome of The Family Detweiller.
[quote='Textev"] ...none of our calculations considered the possibility of an outright shooting war between the League and someone like the Manties. Throw in”mystery raiders” with invisible starships ...[/quote] Seems to contradict what we know over the past several novels to contradict that statement, if they are indeed MAlign.

You are proposing a logical fallacy if people are part of some plan and saying they have no knowledge of the plan. If they are lost lines, they are not hidden agents.

Looking for a lost line: Anton Zilwicki is the quintessential heavy labor unit.

pappilon wrote:
The members of the MAlign (aka Onioneers)are a distinct and very tiny subset of All The Alpha and/or Star Line populace of Mesa and everywhere else.

Each and every Alpha and Beta citizen of Mesa that was Left Behind (Tim LaHaye & Jerry B. Jenkins)is NOT a member of the MAlign. They missed The Rapture, they did not make the cut, they are not valuable enough to the Onion to be carried to the Promised Land. Indeed, they never knew of the promised land.

O'Hanrahan is an Alpha line, we know. Are we knowing or merely assuming she is also an Onioneer? Textev would suggest she is not. All she gets is email from "the front office" telling her where to go and where to stay. No direct contact with Albrecht or B->G clones.

Barregos talking about Operation Sepoy has nothing to do with The Onion, Malign or alpha lines, lost or no. We have DIRECT textev that a shooting war with SEM was a planned outcome of The Family Detweiller.
[quote='Textev"] ...none of our calculations considered the possibility of an outright shooting war between the League and someone like the Manties. Throw in”mystery raiders” with invisible starships ...

Seems to contradict what we know over the past several novels to contradict that statement, if they are indeed MAlign.

You are proposing a logical fallacy if people are part of some plan and saying they have no knowledge of the plan. If they are lost lines, they are not hidden agents.

Looking for a lost line: Anton Zilwicki is the quintessential heavy labor unit.[/quote]

Let me see. If they are lost alpha lines, the break from the MAlign is clear cut.

If they are active and willing members of the MAlign, textev suggests some subterfuge involved in the context of that text. This is less likely than simply not being involved at all.

The possibility that they were MAlign and decided to opt out of the Grand Plan early in their lives is not impossible nor implausible. There are hints throughout the stories.

In the end you will believe as you will and so shall I.

PeterZ wrote:

pappilon wrote:
The members of the MAlign (aka Onioneers)are a distinct and very tiny subset of All The Alpha and/or Star Line populace of Mesa and everywhere else.

Each and every Alpha and Beta citizen of Mesa that was Left Behind (Tim LaHaye & Jerry B. Jenkins)is NOT a member of the MAlign. They missed The Rapture, they did not make the cut, they are not valuable enough to the Onion to be carried to the Promised Land. Indeed, they never knew of the promised land.

O'Hanrahan is an Alpha line, we know. Are we knowing or merely assuming she is also an Onioneer? Textev would suggest she is not. All she gets is email from "the front office" telling her where to go and where to stay. No direct contact with Albrecht or B->G clones.

Barregos talking about Operation Sepoy has nothing to do with The Onion, Malign or alpha lines, lost or no. We have DIRECT textev that a shooting war with SEM was a planned outcome of The Family Detweiller.
[quote='Textev"] ...none of our calculations considered the possibility of an outright shooting war between the League and someone like the Manties. Throw in”mystery raiders” with invisible starships ...

Seems to contradict what we know over the past several novels to contradict that statement, if they are indeed MAlign.

You are proposing a logical fallacy if people are part of some plan and saying they have no knowledge of the plan. If they are lost lines, they are not hidden agents.

Looking for a lost line: Anton Zilwicki is the quintessential heavy labor unit.

Let me see. If they are lost alpha lines, the break from the MAlign is clear cut.

If they are active and willing members of the MAlign, textev suggests some subterfuge involved in the context of that text. This is less likely than simply not being involved at all.

The possibility that they were MAlign and decided to opt out of the Grand Plan early in their lives is not impossible nor implausible. There are hints throughout the stories.

In the end you will believe as you will and so shall I.[/quote]

I suppose I'm more of a literal person/reader. Which is probably why I hate M. Knight Shayalaman. They are both disaffected by the Grand Plan, but the SL/OFS grand plan. I suppose I can't understand the subterfuge of, say The Brothers McBryde discussing the Onion and the upcoming Operation Houdini stritly between the two of them and saying something like "Oh gee I never realized we'd have to leave everyone behind!" There is no logical reason for the subterfuge when both parties are alone and in on the plan.

Love plot twists that are subtly hinted at, hate the ones I say at page 40 that finally happened at page 387. Not sure how much I would enjoy that one, especially with the spoiler.

Yes this a point where we can honorably agree to disagree.

Let's see Anton Zilwicki as a heavy labor line? Probably not. Though he may have some in his genetic past.