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What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?

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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by saber964   » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:48 pm

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Scotty dose not out rank Rafe. Scotty is a newly promoted CAPT(SG) in command of a CruDiv. Rafe is a very senior CAPT(SG) who out ranks Scotty by both time in service and time in grade. Now if Scotty is promoted to Commodore he would out rank him.
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by munroburton   » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:34 pm

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saber964 wrote:Scotty dose not out rank Rafe. Scotty is a newly promoted CAPT(SG) in command of a CruDiv. Rafe is a very senior CAPT(SG) who out ranks Scotty by both time in service and time in grade. Now if Scotty is promoted to Commodore he would out rank him.


I decided to check the latest, just for the sake of it. In Shadow of Victory, one page before chapter 69, there's a quotation page. Here it is:

September 1922 Post Diaspora
"So I'm giving you an opportunity to save your people's lives. You have ten minutes to strike your wedges and surrender. At the end of that time, I will open fire once more. If I do, I doubt there will be many survivors.
"The decision is yours, Admiral."
-Captain (Junior Grade) Sir Prescott Tremaine,
Royal Manticoran Navy,
CO, Cruiser Division 96.1


Mind you, that's my eARC and I did not check the books prior to that. I have to admit I thought Scotty was a Captain SG too.
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:00 pm

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I think that there is a mistake in the text, perhaps a typo. It is plausible to imagine a J being substituted for an S.

At any rate I'm fairly confident that Scotty is a Sr. Grade captain, having been promoted to that status shortly before he took over that cruiser division that was assigned to Talbot. It doesn't make any senseto think that a Jr grade captain would drawn that assignment.

I'll poke around and see what I can come up with and report back.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:45 pm

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Scotty is a senior grade captain. On p 734 of my epub edition it reads:

"And the main display shifted to com mode and a remarkably young senior grade captain in Manticore's black and gold looked out of it with cold blue eyes. 'I'm Captain Prescott Tremaine, Royal Manticoran Navy.'"

I also went and found that quote from the earc and apparently was edited for the final edition. It no longer refers to Scotty as a junior grade captain.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by munroburton   » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:02 am

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n7axw wrote:Scotty is a senior grade captain. On p 734 of my epub edition it reads:

"And the main display shifted to com mode and a remarkably young senior grade captain in Manticore's black and gold looked out of it with cold blue eyes. 'I'm Captain Prescott Tremaine, Royal Manticoran Navy.'"

I also went and found that quote from the earc and apparently was edited for the final edition. It no longer refers to Scotty as a junior grade captain.

Don

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Yep, it has that in my copy too. I'm writing off the pre-Ch69 page as an eARC slip-up.

The salient point is that Scotty definitely isn't formally a commodore, even if he is acting as one in the oldest sense - a captain above other captains. Honor was in a similar position during HotQ & HAE.
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:44 am

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munroburton wrote:
n7axw wrote:Scotty is a senior grade captain. On p 734 of my epub edition it reads:

"And the main display shifted to com mode and a remarkably young senior grade captain in Manticore's black and gold looked out of it with cold blue eyes. 'I'm Captain Prescott Tremaine, Royal Manticoran Navy.'"

I also went and found that quote from the earc and apparently was edited for the final edition. It no longer refers to Scotty as a junior grade captain.

Don

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Barely matters. He's commanding a task force and in a major battle. You know he will be moved up soon. After all, it was his ships that delivered the key blows.

And Terekhov was just made a senior captain before he took over Hexapuma. Which was after Cardones was Flag Captain. We know it was before because Helen was still at Academy when Honor and Rafe took off for Sidemore.


Yep, it has that in my copy too. I'm writing off the pre-Ch69 page as an eARC slip-up.

The salient point is that Scotty definitely isn't formally a commodore, even if he is acting as one in the oldest sense - a captain above other captains. Honor was in a similar position during HotQ & HAE.
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by munroburton   » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:52 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Barely matters. He's commanding a task force and in a major battle. You know he will be moved up soon. After all, it was his ships that delivered the key blows.

And Terekhov was just made a senior captain before he took over Hexapuma. Which was after Cardones was Flag Captain. We know it was before because Helen was still at Academy when Honor and Rafe took off for Sidemore.


Hmm, I have to disagree with that assessment. Scotty was commanding an ad hoc squadron in one of dozens of skirmishes taking place in the Verge. He had one heavy cruiser, a handful of destroyers and a FSV. He defeated two squadrons of battlecruisers.

Yes, it was an overwhelmingly one-sided victory. But so were Saltash, New Tuscany, Spindle and Second Manticore. In overall scale, Wloclawek ends up between Saltash and New Tuscany.

As for Terekhov, I don't think there is any textev indicating when he got promoted to senior grade. It could even have been before Hyacinth. I don't think Terekhov was newly promoted to the List when he got Hexapuma. In any case, Terekhov had been a captain since around 1905/6 - at which time Rafe was only a Tactical Officer!
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by saber964   » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:16 pm

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munroburton wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Barely matters. He's commanding a task force and in a major battle. You know he will be moved up soon. After all, it was his ships that delivered the key blows.

And Terekhov was just made a senior captain before he took over Hexapuma. Which was after Cardones was Flag Captain. We know it was before because Helen was still at Academy when Honor and Rafe took off for Sidemore.


Hmm, I have to disagree with that assessment. Scotty was commanding an ad hoc squadron in one of dozens of skirmishes taking place in the Verge. He had one heavy cruiser, a handful of destroyers and a FSV. He defeated two squadrons of battlecruisers.

Yes, it was an overwhelmingly one-sided victory. But so were Saltash, New Tuscany, Spindle and Second Manticore. In overall scale, Wloclawek ends up between Saltash and New Tuscany.

As for Terekhov, I don't think there is any textev indicating when he got promoted to senior grade. It could even have been before Hyacinth. I don't think Terekhov was newly promoted to the List when he got Hexapuma. In any case, Terekhov had been a captain since around 1905/6 - at which time Rafe was only a Tactical Officer!



No, Scotty defeated a BatCruRon and a LCruRon by blowing a BC to dust bunnies.

Terekhov was a CAPT(SG) in command of Hexapuma
Oversteegen was a CAPT(JG) when he commanded Gauntlet at Tibirian.
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by n7axw   » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:52 pm

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munroburton wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Barely matters. He's commanding a task force and in a major battle. You know he will be moved up soon. After all, it was his ships that delivered the key blows.

And Terekhov was just made a senior captain before he took over Hexapuma. Which was after Cardones was Flag Captain. We know it was before because Helen was still at Academy when Honor and Rafe took off for Sidemore.


Hmm, I have to disagree with that assessment. Scotty was commanding an ad hoc squadron in one of dozens of skirmishes taking place in the Verge. He had one heavy cruiser, a handful of destroyers and a FSV. He defeated two squadrons of battlecruisers.

Yes, it was an overwhelmingly one-sided victory. But so were Saltash, New Tuscany, Spindle and Second Manticore. In overall scale, Wloclawek ends up between Saltash and New Tuscany.

As for Terekhov, I don't think there is any textev indicating when he got promoted to senior grade. It could even have been before Hyacinth. I don't think Terekhov was newly promoted to the List when he got Hexapuma. In any case, Terekhov had been a captain since around 1905/6 - at which time Rafe was only a Tactical Officer!


Here is what we know about Aivars Terekhov's career in the RMN. He starts out after Saganami (no indication he was a mustang) and serves about 15 years in the peacetime navy and goes on reserve to spend 28 years in the diplomatic corp. Promotions being slow during peacetime along with being in the reserve, he re-enters active service after the Battle of Hancock Station as a lieutenant commander. Prior to the Battle of Hyacinth, he rises to captain of the list. We know that because he was serving in that battle as a captain/commodore in charge of the division he lost, but whose sacrifice enabled the convoy he was escorting, filled with replacement parts with Manticore's latest tech to escape the peeps. You don't put a captain jg in that position.

After returning home after being a POW, he spends time in physical/psychological rehab. He re-enters active service as a senior captain once again to assume command of HMS Hexapuma and was posted to Talbot wher he provides outstanding service on both the diplomatic and naval fronts highlighted by the Battle of Monica. Following that battle he returns home only to be quickly promoted to commodore and returned to Talbot where by comand of the empress he is both knighted and awarded his country's highest medal, the Parlimentary of Valor. Commodore Terekhov continues to serve in Talbot as of the end of SOV.

Most of this summary can be validated by textev although there are a couple of spots I filled in by guesswork, such as my assertion that a commodores spot would need a senior grade captain rzather than a captain jg.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What's wrong with Rafe Cardones?
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:04 pm

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n7axw wrote:Most of this summary can be validated by textev although there are a couple of spots I filled in by guesswork, such as my assertion that a commodores spot would need a senior grade captain rzather than a captain jg.

Don

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There is discussion in, I believe it is A Short Victorious War, about concern that issuing a war warning, and the enhanced rules of engagement associated with it, would put the Captain (jg) commanding a CL squadron at risk of kicking off the war that everyone was expecting. But the way the Peeps were ratcheting up the level of confrontation, a war warning was required to ensure that said CL squadron was able to defend itself against a Peep provocation.
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