The way Duchairn’s salvaging the Church...

shayvaan wrote:The interesting thing about this conversation is that everyone is seeing the similarities to past situations, but most are missing the main difference.

The difference is between pre WW2 Germany and the pre jihad COGA.
Germany is a nation and one that has not always been popular with its neighbors (particularly, France and Poland). The COGA on the other hand has been "The Bride of God" for close to a thousand years. Yes, there have been individual cases of corruption in the church (Clyntahn being the latest and the worst), but she has always been "God's Bride."
RFC has shown us this again and again. The leader of the Clans west of Chisholm, the Charisian ambassador to Siddarmark and many others (including the mobs in Zion itself) made a real difference, in their own minds and hearts, between the church on the one hand and Clyntahn and the Inquisition on the other.
Even in the EOC there are people who make that distinction, like Sharlyan's own first councilor.
So, yes, aside from Siddarmark and the EOC (and probably North Harchong, although for different reasons, Duchairn and his allies, could conceivably show Safehold the "True Face of the Church."
It would be a weaker hold, no doubt about it, but it would be there.
Strong enough for another jihad? Probably not by itself, but throw in a possible Archangel and all bets are off, NTM that the EOC will have a lot of resentment for it on a national level as well, much like the Solarian League resents Manticore because of how Manticore dominates the carrying trade in the League.

This lines up pretty well with a previous point I made about how difficult a lot of folks were going find it to deal with the Writ as a fraud. One doesn't have one's Writ, or for that matter, one's church pulled out from under one's feet without the experience being disorienting, wrenching even.

About the closest we get to a historical precedent is the way the Roman Catholic Church dominated Europe during the middle ages over a time span of about 1100 years. By the time Rome, like the COGA, had become thoroughly corrupt. And like the COGA, Rome could make or break secular rulers. Remember Henry, the Holy Roman emperor, as a barefoot penitent in the snow covered Alps groveling before Gregory begging absolution. Of course, Rome's domination was not quite so absolute as the COGA's. The long term consequences of that confrontation didn't work out so well for Gregory, after all. But still, there was a lot of symbolic imagery in that event.

Eventually the Protestant Reformation happened by which was disorienting for lots of people. But the Protestants at least had the Bible to fall back on. Safehold is being confronted not only with the fraudulant nature of a corrupt church, but with the fraudulant nature of the Writ itself. These are people who have been conditioned to relate to God through the church. If both church and Writ are counterfeit, who is it who speaks for God? Or is there a god to be spoken for at all? All of this is going to be really traumatic.

Don

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The CoGA is not built on Faith. The entire premise of the Church is that it stemmed from divine creation. Safeholdians don't believe because they choose to. They believe like we readers believe history, because of documented evidence. Langhorne and Bedard have created a religion without need or even use for Faith.

Now that will make destroying their religion easier. Safeholdians believe after the evidence proves divinity. It follows that evidence which disproves divinity will also be considered. Without Faith to support a believer in an environment of ambiguous evidence, many more people will fall away from the CoGA than hold on for dear life.

By providing imagery to everyone who wants to view it, The Reveal will undercut what had been indesputable proof.

PeterZ wrote:The CoGA is not built on Faith. The entire premise of the Church is that it stemmed from divine creation. Safeholdians don't believe because they choose to. They believe like we readers believe history, because of documented evidence. Langhorne and Bedard have created a religion without need or even use for Faith.

Now that will make destroying their religion easier. Safeholdians believe after the evidence proves divinity. It follows that evidence which disproves divinity will also be considered. Without Faith to support a believer in an environment of ambiguous evidence, many more people will fall away from the CoGA than hold on for dear life.

By providing imagery to everyone who wants to view it, The Reveal will undercut what had been indesputable proof.

I think your first paragraph needs rethinking. Faith is what you believe that you are depending on the way that if you are depending upon a branch that if you climb out on it, it will support your weight. There is tons of that kind of faith in God on Safehold. Now discovering that the basis of that faith is false can shatter faith. Or, even discovering differing interpretations of what I am depending on than the one I believe to be true can endanger faith. Whoops, that branch I've crawled out on seems to be cracking and giving way. I better scoot back toward the trunk!

Historical faith in the sense you are describing is really not faith at all. For example, I can say that "Caesar crossed the Rubicon." That is historical, but it doesn't matter. My life is not impacted by it. Nothing depends upon it nor does it reveal anything to me anything about God and my relationship to him.

On Safehold, people believe that God reveals himself to them through the Writ. They seek to live according to it teach their children the same. They expect that their final destiny depends upon what is revealed there. They are depending on that. There is nothing neutral about it.

Take the Writ away and you have also taken away the sourse and norm of what they believe about God and how God relates to them. Confusing. Disorienting. Frightening to think that if it is false, it might not have been God speaking to them through that at all.

Nothing neutral about that. It leaves them with nothing concrete that can be heard as God speaking. Maybe God has taken a vacation or doesn't exist. All that is left is subjective experience which may or may not be truthful.

Don

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I don't disagree, Don. My point is that The Writ is simply more evidence of God's plan for Safehold and all Safeholdians. Belief in God has so much evidence to back it on Safehold that faith never enters into it.

The Writ describes God's plan. Other evidence The Writ would describe as divine can be presented to provide clarification on God's will where The Writ is silent. That evidence might well contradict some of The Writ. Comparing the relative consistencies of all the available evidence will very likely shatter the Faith of some. Not all, but some Safeholdians. I suspect most Safeholdians will consider the evidence thoroughly. A minority will cling to what they know, but given the atrophied exercise of Faith on Safehold that number will be much smaller than it would have been on Earth.

My gut tells me that imagery of the command crew will shatter the faith in the CoGA much more thoroughly than Faith in God.

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree, Don. My point is that The Writ is simply more evidence of God's plan for Safehold and all Safeholdians. Belief in God has so much evidence to back it on Safehold that faith never enters into it.

The Writ describes God's plan. Other evidence The Writ would describe as divine can be presented to provide clarification on God's will where The Writ is silent. That evidence might well contradict some of The Writ. Comparing the relative consistencies of all the available evidence will very likely shatter the Faith of some. Not all, but some Safeholdians. I suspect most Safeholdians will consider the evidence thoroughly. A minority will cling to what they know, but given the atrophied exercise of Faith on Safehold that number will be much smaller than it would have been on Earth.

My gut tells me that imagery of the command crew will shatter the faith in the CoGA much more thoroughly than Faith in God.

We have no way of knowing what percentage of people who will successfully make the adjustment once the great reveal happens. But there are lots of people in real life who will ride their notion of things down in flames rather than make corrections to their perception of what is true. Consider, oh say, climate change, for example. Or the way the Bryan-Scopes trial keeps getting rehearsed. There are lots of other things out there as well, fights which based on logic and evidence should have been consigned to the dust bin of history.

Unfotunately, logic and evidence are only one factor on why we believe what we believe and not neccessarily the most important one. Our relationships are a factor. Fear often plays in. And maybe the most important consideration is that gut you referred to.

All of this leaves me a whole lot less optimistic about how well Safehold will respond to the great reveal than you apparently are.

Don

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n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree, Don. My point is that The Writ is simply more evidence of God's plan for Safehold and all Safeholdians. Belief in God has so much evidence to back it on Safehold that faith never enters into it.

The Writ describes God's plan. Other evidence The Writ would describe as divine can be presented to provide clarification on God's will where The Writ is silent. That evidence might well contradict some of The Writ. Comparing the relative consistencies of all the available evidence will very likely shatter the Faith of some. Not all, but some Safeholdians. I suspect most Safeholdians will consider the evidence thoroughly. A minority will cling to what they know, but given the atrophied exercise of Faith on Safehold that number will be much smaller than it would have been on Earth.

My gut tells me that imagery of the command crew will shatter the faith in the CoGA much more thoroughly than Faith in God.

Thanks for supporting my point, Don.

We move from universal certainty of belief to a plethora of parallel arguments regarding religion, God, His purpose and humanity's role in all of it. Those that hold the traditional CoGA views will in the minority.

We have no way of knowing what percentage of people who will successfully make the adjustment once the great reveal happens. But there are lots of people in real life who will ride their notion of things down in flames rather than make corrections to their perception of what is true. Consider, oh say, climate change, for example. Or the way the Bryan-Scopes trial keeps getting rehearsed. There are lots of other things out there as well, fights which based on logic and evidence should have been consigned to the dust bin of history.

Unfotunately, logic and evidence are only one factor on why we believe what we believe and not neccessarily the most important one. Our relationships are a factor. Fear often plays in. And maybe the most important consideration is that gut you referred to.

All of this leaves me a whole lot less optimistic about how well Safehold will respond to the great reveal than you apparently are.

Don

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Thanks for supporting my point, Don.
We move from a universal understanding of religion and metaphysics to a plethora of arguments for all sorts of new beliefs that evidence supports. Many who would have remained loyal to the CoGA's doctrines will have been shaken by Clyntahn's actions to remain steadfast in the face of the Reveal. Those already doubtful of the traditional CoGA will embrace deeper doubts. Those who never considered it, will begin considering. No one knows where all those will end. The only certainty is that there will be many opinions.

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Thanks for supporting my point, Don.

We move from universal certainty of belief to a plethora of parallel arguments regarding religion, God, His purpose and humanity's role in all of it. Those that hold the traditional CoGA views will in the minority.

We have no way of knowing what percentage of people who will successfully make the adjustment once the great reveal happens. But there are lots of people in real life who will ride their notion of things down in flames rather than make corrections to their perception of what is true. Consider, oh say, climate change, for example. Or the way the Bryan-Scopes trial keeps getting rehearsed. There are lots of other things out there as well, fights which based on logic and evidence should have been consigned to the dust bin of history.

Unfotunately, logic and evidence are only one factor on why we believe what we believe and not neccessarily the most important one. Our relationships are a factor. Fear often plays in. And maybe the most important consideration is that gut you referred to.

All of this leaves me a whole lot less optimistic about how well Safehold will respond to the great reveal than you apparently are.

Don

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Thanks for supporting my point, Don.
We move from a universal understanding of religion and metaphysics to a plethora of arguments for all sorts of new beliefs that evidence supports. Many who would have remained loyal to the CoGA's doctrines will have been shaken by Clyntahn's actions to remain steadfast in the face of the Reveal. Those already doubtful of the traditional CoGA will embrace deeper doubts. Those who never considered it, will begin considering. No one knows where all those will end. The only certainty is that there will be many opinions.

The argument seems to focus solely upon the moral and religious aspects of the Great Reveal. Yet my original questions also involved all the other problems Duchairn must deal with in order to salvage the Church. Delivering justice for the millions of Clyntahn's victims, purging the Church of corruption and instituting reforms that will (hopefully) prevent the emergence of another Zhaspahr Clyntahn are all steps in the right direction. But think about all the other issues he needs to deal with.

The CoGA is buried in debt that its racked up over 3-4 years. Duchairn pulled all the stops to keep the Church afloat financially, including the sale of Church-owned lands, selling war bonds and selling Church property within the EOC. Add to that the debts to Siddarmark that were repudiated - which I am certain the Lord Protector will insist on being repaid in full and with interest as a minimum requirement for any future peace (much less reunification) - and the costs of shifting back to a peacetime economy. Even after cutting all military expenditures to their pre-Jihad levels while maintaining the high tax/tithe base, it will still take the Church years to repay all their loans (including to Siddarmark if they wish to maintain at least a peaceful relationship with it), all assuming reparations for the Sword of Schueler and the Inquisition's concentration camps aren't an issue as well.

Then there's the technological issue to consider. The whole point of the Holy Writ was to eliminate any technological innovation. Yet now Charis' military power is such that every ruler on Safehold has to embrace its innovations if they even hope to defend themselves against any Charisian aggression (they can't afford to assume Charis will play nice going forward). And they can't hope to compete with Charis' merchant marine whose ships will all be equipped with steam engines, allowing them to travel anywhere far faster and with larger cargoes than any sail powered ship. Nor is Charis likely to stop innovating. And without its pre-Jihad political authority (which has been rejected) to order kingdoms around and without the Inquisition to force Charis and Siddarmark to comply with the Proscriptions, the Church will have to allow all other realms to match Charisian innovations (if only tacitly) and innovate itself. This will also contribute to the further erosion of the Proscriptions and to the Church's overall authority, since at some point the most devout Temple Loyalists are going to feel that the Church is back to its old expedient tricks.

Whatever the Key contains and whatever lies beneath the Temple, Duchairn has to pull together what remains of the Temple Lands and the CoGA's responsibilities in loyalist nations. His coffers are empty and his economic base of support has shrunk substantially. He will have to tax the Temple Lands and adopt some of the innovations in those church lands. He must or the economic activity will grow too slowly for him to adequately address his Curch's debts. South Harchong and Dohlar alone adopting Charisian innovations are not enough. North Harchong and the Temple Lands have to follow suit. That i suspect will be the cause of friction in the next arc. The CoGA will have set precedence in accepting innovations to meet their financial obligations. Once they are no longer desperate to raise funds, can they give up the revenue? I suspect the Church will be torn over the question.

As for the technology, simply accepting steam will increase standards of living that will lift so many people out of poverty. Industrial chemistry will make new medicines more readily available. All these things will make so many people so much better off. How can a Church honestly looking to make its members' lives better simply ignore ideas that will enable them to meet its goals? It can't.

Yes, the CoGA was created to stifle innovation. It doesn't state that outright, but does establish limits. However, the CoGA also stipulates God loves His children. How can He find issue with allowable technology that make His beloved children's lives better? Once the OBS has been taken care of and no rakurai punishes use of proscribed tech, must not even the most devout loyalist consider God might have changed his mind?

The CoGA does not rely on punishment being meted out in the hear after, it relies on punishment being meted out in this life. Clyntahn used the Church's ability to dispense punishment just as Chihiro sent rakurai. Defang that ability and further separate God's support of the Church from the Safeholdians belief in God. The cognitive disconnect is much less severe in that.

I think that collecting COGA's debt brings to mind the old saying about collecting blood from a turnip. Further, there probably isn't enough collateral to cover it unless you can take the Temple itself in lieu of payment. Besides, how are you going to collect? March armies on Zion? I suspect that war losses will be exactly that...losses forever disappeared in the cauldron of the Temple's unjust war.

It reminds me a bit of Germany's situation in the aftermath of WW1.

Don

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Paying the full principal immediately? No chance in hades. Making the payments is likely possible if the loyalist lands manage sufficient economic growth.