How many impeller rings are needed to use a wormhole?

As I remember, there is statement that a warship's profile was because of the need for two rings to generate two wedges. Merchant ships only generate one. I also remember a statement that Henke's ship could not travel in hyper space grav wave with only one ring working. How can merchant ships use grav waves/wormholes with only one ring?

Nyssa wrote:As I remember, there is statement that a warship's profile was because of the need for two rings to generate two wedges. Merchant ships only generate one. I also remember a statement that Henke's ship could not travel in hyper space grav wave with only one ring working. How can merchant ships use grav waves/wormholes with only one ring?

One. But you'd need to be towed.

None.

RFC let slip somewhere that spider drive ships can generate Warshawski sails and hence use wormholes. They do not have impeller rings.

munroburton wrote:None.

RFC let slip somewhere that spider drive ships can generate Warshawski sails and hence use wormholes. They do not have impeller rings.

IIRC he actually said something along the lines of "what makes you think they can't [use wormholes]?"

But it's not impossible that the spider ships mount an alpha ring or two to generate sails. On that hull shape they wouldn't be very efficient, but if all they need to do is stabilize the ship in and out of the wormhole while the hypergenetor cycles then efficiency isn't really critical.

Beyond wormholes it would also be a significant drawback if spider warships weren't able to attack systems that sat within a grav wave - so again you'd expect the MAlign to have done something to make that possible.

But we don't know if that something was that the spider drive is capable of functioning within a wave or wormhole approach, or whether they also mount sails (even though they can't fold them into a wedge)


But for normal ships, a single sail (generated by a single ring of alpha nodes) can stabilize a ship, preventing it's destruction in a grav wave (and presumably also for a wormhole), but is incapable of providing thrust. To accelerate using sails you need a pair of them, taking 2 complete alpha rings.

(That's why kzt said a single ring ship would need to be towed through the wormhole. Though the distances are low enough it might well be able to maneuver itself into position using reaction thrusters instead)

munroburton wrote:None.

RFC let slip somewhere that spider drive ships can generate Warshawski sails and hence use wormholes. They do not have impeller rings.

Spider drive ships do have impeller rings, as the alpha nodes in an impeller ring are what generates Warshawski sails. They just don't use those nodes to generate an impeller wedge. And since they don't generate wedges, they don't need to mount beta nodes.

Vince wrote:Spider drive ships do have impeller rings, as the alpha nodes in an impeller ring are what generates Warshawski sails. They just don't use those nodes to generate an impeller wedge. And since they don't generate wedges, they don't need to mount beta nodes.

No impeller wedges, period. I'll concede that spider ships do mount alpha nodes in order to be able to use the Felix Junction and attack systems in grav waves, but the nodes could be configured quite differently.

It becomes a semantic argument at this point, but even if they do have ring-type configurations - they should be referred to as 'sail rings' or something else since they most definitely do not generate impellers.

Has anyone got a drawing - even a basic conceptual sketch - of a spider drive ship?

Nyssa wrote:As I remember, there is statement that a warship's profile was because of the need for two rings to generate two wedges. Merchant ships only generate one. I also remember a statement that Henke's ship could not travel in hyper space grav wave with only one ring working. How can merchant ships use grav waves/wormholes with only one ring?

The "two wedges" of a warship are because of the presence of both the alpha rings and the beta rings. Civilian ships generate a single wedge because they don't have both alpha and beta rings not because they lack either a forward ring or an after ring.

As I understand it (long-time reader and lurker, even though newly registered here) to navigate (or even survive) a grav wave you need a foresail and an aftersail to balance the grav stress. These are generated by the two rings of alpha nodes on every starship, one forward, one aft.

The "second ring" that warships have and civilian ships don't is actually a second PAIR of rings, the fore and aft beta nodes. Beta nodes can generate the second half of a warships duplex wedge but cannot generate a sail. Thus, in a system that is within a grav wave, getting an alpha node shot out as Mike's ship did means translating into hyper would be suicidal because you'd be in a grav wave without one of your sails and be destroyed by the gravitational shear. Wormholes require two sails because a wormhole transition is sailing a grav wave on cosmic steroids. You'll note that in many descriptions of a transit it is specifically mentioned that the beta rings shut down when the alpha nodes are reconfigured to generate the sails. Similarly you'll note in the initial description of the Shrike-class LAC design, that it only has beta nodes - it doesn't need alphas because it isn't hyper-capable and will never need to generate sails. Civilian starships have ONLY alpha rings fore and aft, thus only generate a simplex wedge under impeller drive but still generate both a foresail and an aftersail for wave navigation or wormhole transits.

So the answer to the question is "Two functional alpha rings, irrespective of the state of your beta rings (if you're a warship and have them at all)"

DaveB63 wrote:

Nyssa wrote:As I remember, there is statement that a warship's profile was because of the need for two rings to generate two wedges. Merchant ships only generate one. I also remember a statement that Henke's ship could not travel in hyper space grav wave with only one ring working. How can merchant ships use grav waves/wormholes with only one ring?

The "two wedges" of a warship are because of the presence of both the alpha rings and the beta rings. Civilian ships generate a single wedge because they don't have both alpha and beta rings not because they lack either a forward ring or an after ring.

As I understand it (long-time reader and lurker, even though newly registered here) to navigate (or even survive) a grav wave you need a foresail and an aftersail to balance the grav stress. These are generated by the two rings of alpha nodes on every starship, one forward, one aft.

The "second ring" that warships have and civilian ships don't is actually a second PAIR of rings, the fore and aft beta nodes. Beta nodes can generate the second half of a warships duplex wedge but cannot generate a sail. Thus, in a system that is within a grav wave, getting an alpha node shot out as Mike's ship did means translating into hyper would be suicidal because you'd be in a grav wave without one of your sails and be destroyed by the gravitational shear. Wormholes require two sails because a wormhole transition is sailing a grav wave on cosmic steroids. You'll note that in many descriptions of a transit it is specifically mentioned that the beta rings shut down when the alpha nodes are reconfigured to generate the sails. Similarly you'll note in the initial description of the Shrike-class LAC design, that it only has beta nodes - it doesn't need alphas because it isn't hyper-capable and will never need to generate sails. Civilian starships have ONLY alpha rings fore and aft, thus only generate a simplex wedge under impeller drive but still generate both a foresail and an aftersail for wave navigation or wormhole transits.

So the answer to the question is "Two functional alpha rings, irrespective of the state of your beta rings (if you're a warship and have them at all)"

And actually it's apparently reasonably common for freighters to have full sets of both alpha and beta rings. I think the Beta's provide a stronger wedge (compared to Alphas alone) which should help will acceleration and compensator performance, but mainly they carry them for redundancy. If an alpha ring fails - or looks iffy - at least they can
manouver (outside of a grav wave) on Betas.

Now some in-system ships (including IIRC forts; but definitely including shuttles and pinnaces) mount only a single beta ring for their wedges. That way they don't have to stick to the tapered spindle hull form that the double ring forces you to have (kind of hard to fit wings into that profile) and they just accept the lower acceleration because they aren't going as far.

Jonathan_S wrote:...Now some in-system ships (including IIRC forts; but definitely including shuttles and pinnaces) mount only a single beta ring for their wedges. That way they don't have to stick to the tapered spindle hull form that the double ring forces you to have (kind of hard to fit wings into that profile) and they just accept the lower acceleration because they aren't going as far.

Yup. A single ring of any type can generate a wedge. A single ring of alphas can be reconfigured to generate a single sail. Navigating a wave or a wormhole requires two sails ergo minimum requirement is a pair of alpha rings.

However you've piqued my curiosity. I can't recall a single instance where a civilian design (ie not a warship or a ship designed from the outset as a fleet auxiliary) had the dual alpha/beta rings common to all warships. Ah well, just another excuse to binge-read the lot all over again looking for one...

DaveB63 wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:...Now some in-system ships (including IIRC forts; but definitely including shuttles and pinnaces) mount only a single beta ring for their wedges. That way they don't have to stick to the tapered spindle hull form that the double ring forces you to have (kind of hard to fit wings into that profile) and they just accept the lower acceleration because they aren't going as far.

Yup. A single ring of any type can generate a wedge. A single ring of alphas can be reconfigured to generate a single sail. Navigating a wave or a wormhole requires two sails ergo minimum requirement is a pair of alpha rings.

However you've piqued my curiosity. I can't recall a single instance where a civilian design (ie not a warship or a ship designed from the outset as a fleet auxiliary) had the dual alpha/beta rings common to all warships. Ah well, just another excuse to binge-read the lot all over again looking for one...

I'm not sure if it came up in the books, I was remembering it from a post David made about 5 years ago (03-Sept-2012 in the thread Obstacles)

runsforcelery wrote:4) A hyper-capable warship, which requires two rings of alpha nodes, also mounts two complete sets of beta nodes because it's generating a double impeller wedge, one inside the other, as a defense against hostile sensors which manage to analyze the grav differential of the outer wedge to be and also for redundancy's sake;

(5) Most hyper-capable freighters also mount two complete sets of beta nodes as a load sharing and security-through-redundancy measure, since they have to have the power runs and the installations for the alpha nodes, anyway;

(6) LACs, missiles, drones, and forts which are not hyper capable do not require two sets of alpha nodes, nor do they require a second set of beta nodes in order to generate a wedge;

Though I believe that the new LAC designs (Shrike, Ferret, Katana) do mount two set of Beta squared nodes - at least the line drawing in HoS seem to show that. So that bit about LACs is outdated.