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The Four Horsemen

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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by Daryl   » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:22 am

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The E has done my reply better than I can, but I'll add a little. I know the holocaust happened because someone I knew and trusted personally was among the liberating troops. A small matter of the highly efficient Germans keeping all their records helps as well.
Darwin existed and his theory exists. I'm a bit contrary for a scientist here in that just as what Newton postulated is called the Law of Gravity, I believe that Darwin should be credited with the Law of Evolution. There is so much evidence and ongoing correlation that no sensible person should doubt his work. No faith required.
As for the Bible, I do believe that there are some factual references there, but mainly it is just myths.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by The E   » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:22 am

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Daryl wrote:As for the Bible, I do believe that there are some factual references there, but mainly it is just myths.


And that's the difference: "On the origin of species" lists observations and draws inferences from those observations. The reasoning is laid out, references are provided, and if you were so inclined, you could go and check the observations and analyze the logical chain Darwin followed to arrive at his conclusions.

The Bible, by contrast, lists things that can be proven, mixes them with things that can't, and from that believers draw the conclusion that the things that can't be proven are in fact proven because they're mentioned next to things that can be. Or, more insidiously, proclaiming that the Bible must be a factual and true account because "it feels real".
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by Imaginos1892   » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:17 pm

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I find it sad that so many people today build their lives around myths that were made up thousands of years ago by primitive, superstitious people who were appallingly ignorant by the standards of modern education. They were completely unaware of facts that are common knowledge among today’s children. They really weren’t smarter than a fifth grader.

They did not know about electromagnetism or any of the other fundamental forces. They did not know that matter is made up of atoms and molecules. They did not know about bacteria and viruses. They did not know that the sun is a huge ball of fusing hydrogen that holds the Earth in orbit with gravity. They did not know that all the quintillions of stars are other balls of fusing matter, some of them millions of times bigger than the sun. They had no idea how vast the universe is, how infinitesimal we are, and how ridiculous was their belief that we are the sole purpose of Everything.

They found their world an inexplicable, confusing, frightening place filled with mysterious phenomena they did not understand. They had not a clue what caused storms, floods, droughts, lightning or earthquakes, why people got sick and died, why children were sometimes born with deformities or strange afflictions, why some animals, plants and even simple minerals could kill them. They did not know how to find answers to all those questions, so they made up fake answers to allay their fears, a father-figure to protect them from their ignorance, and pretended they Knew It All.

If they were shown the computers being used to propound their myths, they would be in awe of their magic or, more likely, burn them as instruments of the devil.

Today we do know how to find answers, real answers, and have found the answers to many of those questions. We use facts, logic and reason — the only tools that can provide real answers. Unfortunately, some people still insist on clinging to those old fake answers, even when presented with proven facts that contradict them. They claim they have ‘faith’. Well, ‘faith’ is the opposite of knowledge.

The definition of ‘faith’ is: ‘believing something because you really, really want it to be true’. Even if facts prove that it’s not true, you can still continue to believe it if you want to bad enough. It does save you a whole lot of work. You don’t have to search for facts, find ways to determine whether they are true or not, relate them to other facts, and build the most accurate picture of reality you can. You can just believe what you want to believe, and if the facts don’t support you, just don’t believe the facts. That’s religion in a nutshell.

Trouble is, the universe doesn’t care what you believe. Reality remains real whether you believe in it or not. Try jumping off a cliff and really, really wanting to believe you won’t plummet to the ground. Let me know how that works out for you.

We know the universe is so much bigger and more complex than those primitives ever imagined. Why would anybody today choose to limit themselves to that ignorance?
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If you are wrong, it doesn't matter how many people agree with you. You are still wrong, and so are they.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:05 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:All right, some of your myths were written in the Iron Age.
I believe the entire new testament - including Revelations - was written after the Hittites began producing Iron, but then we only have
Daryl wrote:what some semi literate nomadic goat herder wrote about 3000 years ago.
as proof they did.
Imaginos1892 wrote:... your myths ...
Again, they are not 'myths' they are written accounts, just as the accounts of the Hittites or Babylonians or Sumerians are. Until dis-proven that is what they remain. You can't tell us which documents we can believe are true and which we can't - I guess there was no Roman Empire, or Greek, Alexander-the-Great or Ramses I. They never really existed, we only have some old 'myths' some half-literate goat-herder playwright wrote to go by. All of that was just scripts for plays that people performed and nothing else.
Imaginos1892 wrote:All right, [i]Still not something to waste time on in the Atomic Age.
You seam to think so!
What does having nuclear reactors somewhere on the planet have to do with anything here?
The premise of this thread is that "they are real and true" and to discuses their meaning. Whether or not they are true - is not open for discussion here.
For purposes of this discussion the answer is;
100% proven FACT - YES they are!

If you want you can make that another thread.

Now - what do they mean?
Last edited by MAD-4A on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:17 pm

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The E wrote:So your evidence for islam and christianity being opposites is "because MAD-4A said so".
No it isn't - I explained the basis, You've already shown your complete lack of understanding in Christianity or Islam, but those are not the premise of this thread. If you want that start a new thread requesting an explanation of the difference - not what this thread is about.

The E wrote:This is what mythology is: Real events, told and retold until they acquire supernatural traits.
No that is not what 'myth' means. a myth is a 'false belief or idea' and does not necessarily have a 'supernatural' aspect to it. Claiming this to be a 'myth' is calling it 'false' (and you know it) - this does not belong on this thread - that would be a different tread discussing whether the Bible or Koran are true or not.
Last edited by MAD-4A on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:20 pm

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Daryl wrote:As for the Bible, I do believe that there are some factual references there, but mainly it is just myths.
Then you don't belong on this thread
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:28 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:I find it sad that so many people today build their lives around myths that were made up thousands of years ago...
I find it sad that so many people today think that they know everything and there is nothing more outside of this old, dilapidated, moldy, mud ball, we're spinning around on.
Imaginos1892 wrote:You are still wrong, and so are they.
Ah, so your evidence is that we are wrong because "the E" and "Imaginos1892" say we are! Now we know they are omnipotent gods!!!! all has been answered!

as mentioned before - If you don't believe in them then your not part of this thread, start another discussing true or false.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by Imaginos1892   » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:51 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:Again, they are not 'myths' they are written accounts, just as the accounts of the Hittites or Babylonians or Sumerians are. Until dis-proven that is what they remain. You can't tell us which documents we can believe are true and which we can't - I guess there was no Roman Empire, or Greek, Alexander-the-Great or Ramses I. They never really existed, we only have some old 'myths' some half-literate goat-herder playwright wrote to go by. All of that was just scripts for plays that people performed and nothing else.

So, that means the Kabbalah, the Vedas, the Sutras, the Kojiki, those are all written accounts that must also be accepted as fact. You just said we can't pick and choose which to believe, after all…

Or is it only YOUR myths that must be accepted as fact?

MAD-4A wrote:I find it sad that so many people today think that they know everything and there is nothing more outside of this old, dilapidated, moldy, mud ball, we're spinning around on.

You are the ones claiming that you know everything from reading a collection of ancient mythology that you 'just know' is true because you want it to be.

I say that we have already learned a multitude of things those superstitious primitives never dreamed existed, that there are still many more things to be learned, and that believing those myths would prevent us from learning them.

I was too charitable when I said 'faith' is the opposite of knowledge — it is the antithesis of knowledge, in that it prevents the practitioner from acquiring any knowledge that is not part of their accepted 'faith'. We can find new knowledge by using observation, logic and reason to isolate facts; we find nothing by 'having faith'.
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Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by cthia   » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:15 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
MAD-4A wrote:Again, they are not 'myths' they are written accounts, just as the accounts of the Hittites or Babylonians or Sumerians are. Until dis-proven that is what they remain. You can't tell us which documents we can believe are true and which we can't - I guess there was no Roman Empire, or Greek, Alexander-the-Great or Ramses I. They never really existed, we only have some old 'myths' some half-literate goat-herder playwright wrote to go by. All of that was just scripts for plays that people performed and nothing else.

So, that means the Kabbalah, the Vedas, the Sutras, the Kojiki, those are all written accounts that must also be accepted as fact. You just said we can't pick and choose which to believe, after all…

Or is it only YOUR myths that must be accepted as fact?

MAD-4A wrote:I find it sad that so many people today think that they know everything and there is nothing more outside of this old, dilapidated, moldy, mud ball, we're spinning around on.

You are the ones claiming that you know everything from reading a collection of ancient mythology that you 'just know' is true because you want it to be.

I say that we have already learned a multitude of things those superstitious primitives never dreamed existed, that there are still many more things to be learned, and that believing those myths would prevent us from learning them.

I was too charitable when I said 'faith' is the opposite of knowledge — it is the antithesis of knowledge, in that it prevents the practitioner from acquiring any knowledge that is not part of their accepted 'faith'. We can find new knowledge by using observation, logic and reason to isolate facts; we find nothing by 'having faith'.
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Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

It is hilarious that the multitude of things that we learn has always had a tendency to make many of us feel as though we know more than our parents. True wisdom has never had that effect on us. No matter if the parent is our birth parent, or our creator.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Four Horsemen
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:40 am

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cthia wrote:It is hilarious that the multitude of things that we learn has always had a tendency to make many of us feel as though we know more than our parents. True wisdom has never had that effect on us. No matter if the parent is our birth parent, or our creator.

Every generation learns more than the one before — IF they take the trouble to do so, and IF they are not held back by a 'faith' that denies inconvenient facts.
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