SLN Ship improvement

OFS worlds really don't matter. They have no money and no tech to build real combat systems. Core worlds have lots of money, technology comparable to Manticore, infinitely more industry (really - x/0) and hugely more people.

There are no governors for core worlds. Most are fiercely independent and won't accept the SL trying to tell them how to run their planet.

Sigs wrote:So you are saying that Haven can turn their entire economy and education system around inside 5 years, fight a multisided war, build an entire secret fleet of hundreds of SD(P)'s and lighter combatants with thousands of LAC's in 1 system in 5 years while not 1 of 1,700+ League members can build LAC's in any sort of quantity?

Remember, Shannon Foraker spent some time aboard HMS Wayfarer, which was effectively a test-bed for internal pod deployment capability and LAC carrying, and the LACs carried were already a more potent varient than normally encountered. So there was probably 3-4 years of one of the best Havenite tactical thinkers - one especially known for looking at things differently and overcoming shortfalls - mulling things over, then several more years in charge of Bolthole. She (or one of her assistants) also seemed to be good at getting round pegs firmly into round holes, as their LAC design showed.

As for the education and economy, that was part of the reason behind Rob S Pierre's coup, and the Dolists had already started to learn and work long before Theisman restored the Constitution of The Republic of Haven.

Finally, I didn't see any comments that they couldn't build LACs in quantity, but that they couldn't be built and distributed in *sufficient* quantity.

We don't know how developed Bolthole was before Theisman got his hands on it, but Haven managed to build ~320 SD(P)'s, 48 Carriers and probably close to 60,000 LAC's in one system in 5 years having had to develop many technologies from scratch while fighting a multisided civil war, enacting economic changes, rebuilding the infrastructure and industry of the nation and reeducating a large segment of the population to dramatically improve the efficiency of the Havenite industry all at the same time. And they build the new fleet with most likely resources from that one system... Gee the League must be full of idiots if 1,700 systems can't scrape together at least some industrial capability to build a bunch of low tech LAC's.

Pat Givens thought at one point that the Legislaturists had been involved in the development of Bolthole, suggesting quite early on during the CfPS tenure. The novella may clear that up sooner.

However, Haven had also taken to stockpiling components, which allowed a faster build rate - this was specifically highlighted during AAC, IIRC - there wasn't really much new technology, but it had been repurposed. Furthermore, Haven knew what technology the RMN had deployed, whereas the SLN has ignored this.

Compare that to the SLN. They haven't been incrementally applying upgrades to ships. Haven had started using pods no later than IEH, and had had to adapt to the high missile density environment even earlier.

How about the FTL transmissions? Haven reported these very early on, yet the SLN has not made any progress compared to Haven or Manticore.

The problem is two-fold. Lack of motivation, and complete ignorance as to how capable LACs can be when designed and used in modified roles. (LACs? Pah, they're not a real warship!)

There is a difference between the SLN, and the SDFs that Solly worlds have. A lot of worlds don't have serious SDFs.

However some Solly worlds DO have serious SDFs. Some Solly worlds HAVE been paying attention to the Haven sector wars. Indeed, we see a lot of SLN officers mentally dismissing the reports from the SDFs. We are even explicitly told that the SLN has fallen behind some of the SDFs.

Some Solarian League Systems might be super-far behind and not have a clue, but other Solarian League systems know exactly what's going on and have already been doing their damnedest to keep up. These systems probably aren't going to be scared of random FF equipped warlords and their battlecruiser swarms.

So while some worlds might be hopelessly behind other worlds might be already spamming new system defense pods, and remember many core systems will have access to vastly more resources than Manticore.

Which is why its probably a good thing that the Mandarins are acting like assholes. It would be great if the League Worlds rise up to destroy the foul federal government so Manticore can escape blame. Now if they could just shake the blame for Mesa they'll be doing great!

1)A) Core worlds with much industry and population but NO SDF or defense industry start even farther behind the 8-ball than Sol with its much vaunted SLN, They have to start from scratch todevelop a doctrine to design ships to fit the doctrine, to design the weapons systems then develop the specs before it can lay down the first hull. Then it has to start educating a military cadre.

or B)It can buy obsolete SL designs from TIY or any other contractors: hire former FF or BF senior officers to help them train a navy from scratch. Which only puts them at a slight disadvantage from Earth, but still way behind everybody.

C) Assuming it is not too close to a RF world running its own case Buccaneer on its neighbors,how much does each of these worlds know of actual Manty tech with a century of R&D + direct combat experience driving their tech, doctrine, and tactics? What the Solarian newsies reported?

2)A) a SINGLE system world on its own resources with a SLN equivalent SDF loses the quantity advantage immediately. It does not have the knowledge or experience of other former core worlds to draw upon, nor their combined resources.

B) is 100years behind the GA in weapons research, ship design; and 60 years behind in tactics, training, and combat experience.

C) Still at least 6 years from hull construction parity, and much farther in technology. Yes you have a huge population and a bunh of good reseach universities, but you are still starting from near SLN information on FTL, sensor capability, EW capability, CM ability, CLACs etc.

3) Core world NOT Renaissance factor member, is still a SINGLE system (see above) still behind on basic research, with unknowable (to you, therefore you can plug in any "out your butt" ability you want into it) capability. Assuming the RF does not have eyes on taking you out post haste before you can become a threat to it or a center for other single systems to coalesce around, thus becoming a multi-system polity with internal political struggles of its own.

4)A) Some coalition of neighboring star systems with some idividual system combination of advanced to no SDF. Perhaps the best of the bunch combining the skills, wealth and populations still-much-smaller than your former SL or RoH or SEM or probably the AE.

Which (B)makes you an even larger, higher priority target for the RF. Who, in case you have forgotten, has its own plan for galactic domination AND it has invisible warships that you have NO sensor readings on, no Malign scientist to help you create your own streak drive or cut your development time on the spider drive.

pappilon wrote:
Haven had a wartime economy and a wartime manufacturing base across its multi-system republic decades before Basilisk Station.

So? They were also technologically backwards, near economic collapse because a large % of their population was on welfare and unproductive and also when I think about it the population in question was poorly trained to boot. Most core systems start with technological parity compared to Manticore when it comes to civilian technology. They have the tools to start researching much sooner, to build up shipyards much quicker and I would hope they also have the educated citizens to put to work.

Heck it was a regional power at the Call to Duty series timeline. So comparing it to some very wealthy system with its own SDF and NO combat experience, no actual knowledge of what the GA actually has, how to develop what it doesn't know becomes ... problematic. haven had the advantage of being at near par technologically with blooded fleets, and a wide quantitative advantage. it actually obtained RMN tech after combat during the first war. it had a great jump in tech when Erewhon handed them everything short of FTL- apollo etc. and they still couldn't duplicate it only find almost-as-good-but-more-of-it.

The theoretical nation I suggested would start far ahead technologically when compared to Haven at least civilian side. They are all industrialized thus they should have the means to build up shipyards and research and development. Im not saying that they would be pumping out hundreds of SDs 2 years from deciding they want to build their own ships I am saying that 4 years from making the decision they would be putting out a handful of SD's in commission even if they are only slightly upgraded Scientist Class. They would be wasting a lot of money building obsolete ships but at the end of the day the goal is to build up your yards rather than build more SD's immediately. The SD's are a nice bonus because they would give you a training platform for your fledging navy and also the ability to protect your systems at east from technological equals.

With every flight of SD's you would incorporate all the new technological discoveries into the design, when you come up with a viable SD(P) design you build it and then hand it over to your navy to test it out and develop doctrine for it. In the mean time though you are protected by as many LAC's as you can build and as many missile pods as you can.

Not to mention the machinations of the MAlign and its renaissance Factor. Ya think its not finding those little simmering resentments and squirting a little hydrogen on the embers of resentment priming systems for conflict with neighbors to increase the general feeling of a galaxy going to hell for its own motives?

Of course it is, that is all the more incentive to build your own military and defence industry as possible. The core worlds have been insulated from reality by the SLN for centuries, suddenly they see the invincible SLN destroyed by what until recently used to be a single system nation, I doubt they would willingly give their defence responsibilities to someone else. They might make alliances and pacts with the GA and their neighbours but I highly doubt many successor states will be dependant on the GA for protection or the RF for that matter.

Systems with no hyper capable SDF that they are building themselves without importing from TIY etc. are effectively starting a 100 meter dash from -40m. Systems with little info beyond news reports will not catch up to Manticore.

Not immediately, but they have to start from somewhere and they have to start at some point. Otherwise they might as well ask for inclusion in the the Empire and the Republic or beg to be protectorates.

The Core and Shell worlds will have to band together in small clumps and pool resources to defend themselves from the renegade OFS governors and their ex-FF navies first and the survivors then can turn their developed tech and anger toward SEM and the GA. Certainly not going to happen in 6 years, maybe not in 60.

The ex-FF navies will be facing off against ex-SLN navies. Where do you think the SLN and it's ships will go if the League collapses? If the industrialized core worlds have no chance to build viable fleets what makes you think protectorates and verge systems will? Especially since most of them would happily throw out those same governors out on their ass?

WLBjork wrote:
Remember, Shannon Foraker spent some time aboard HMS Wayfarer, which was effectively a test-bed for internal pod deployment capability and LAC carrying, and the LACs carried were already a more potent varient than normally encountered. So there was probably 3-4 years of one of the best Havenite tactical thinkers - one especially known for looking at things differently and overcoming shortfalls - mulling things over, then several more years in charge of Bolthole. She (or one of her assistants) also seemed to be good at getting round pegs firmly into round holes, as their LAC design showed.

I was not referring to the technological ability to build SD(P)'s I was referring to the ability to build a whole new navy in 4 years and research technologies to build said navy and build LAC's in large numbers, and carriers and support ships etc etc etc all from one system and at the same time saying that a handful of highly industrialized core worlds will not be able to create the ability to build everything from SD's on down to LAC's.

If Haven can build 300+ SD's, tens of thousands of LAC's, carriers and DD/CL/CA/BC's from one system in 5 years why can't 10 or 20 core worlds build the same ability even if it is on a much smaller scale in similar time frame?

Why can't core worlds build shipyards that can build everything from SD's on down to LAC's in five years?

As for the education and economy, that was part of the reason behind Rob S Pierre's coup, and the Dolists had already started to learn and work long before Theisman restored the Constitution of The Republic of Haven.

Yeah and core worlds should theoretically start ahead in this case since they would be starting with a productive and educated work forces.

Finally, I didn't see any comments that they couldn't build LACs in quantity, but that they couldn't be built and distributed in *sufficient* quantity.

Not immediately, but in a few years they will. There is no magic pill here, they start building up their capabilities and maybe they get sufficient numbers within 5 years to make a difference and maybe they don't. Many people seem to be ignoring the the core worlds before or after the collapse of the League will have to start from somewhere anyway.


How would you do it? Would you say I am technologically behind so I won't even try? Would you try to gain technological parity before you start building up your shipyards and fleet? Or would you turn to the GA and beg them to provide protection...and for how long would you request that protection? How much would you pay for said protection in terms of money or freedom?

Pat Givens thought at one point that the Legislaturists had been involved in the development of Bolthole, suggesting quite early on during the CfPS tenure. The novella may clear that up sooner.

Yeah but it seems that it wasn't developed to quite the same level until after the republic was restored. otherwise if Haven had the ability to build hundreds of SD's in secret during the first war on top of their other yards the Alliance would have been screwed.

Compare that to the SLN. They haven't been incrementally applying upgrades to ships. Haven had started using pods no later than IEH, and had had to adapt to the high missile density environment even earlier.

Again, irrelevant, I am not saying that the SLN or it's successor would have technological parity with the GA in 5 years and a fleet to rival their as well. I am saying that a few core systems banding together can have a sizeable force of LAC's and Pods defending their systems and the ABILITY to build SD's in five years if not building them already. Not SD(P)'s mind you but SD's even if they are slightly upgraded Scientist Class.

How about the FTL transmissions? Haven reported these very early on, yet the SLN has not made any progress compared to Haven or Manticore.

Why does that matter the the successor states ability to build up shipyards? The successor state will be starting from a position of inferiority, that is why I am suggesting pumping out LAC's since those have been around for a long time. As the research teams come up with new solution to the problems the next flight of LAC's has the new technology incorporated. The next flight of warships build has the technologies incorporated. Just as haven incrementally increased their technology so could the successor states. And keep in mind that until 1913-1915 most of the incremental increases for the Havenite navy seemed to be coming in from the League. So this might mean the SLN and any successor state still has a lot of military technology that is not necessarily being used by the SLN at the time.

The problem is two-fold. Lack of motivation, and complete ignorance as to how capable LACs can be when designed and used in modified roles. (LACs? Pah, they're not a real warship!)

I would disagree on both points. There would have been a lack of motivation before the SLN got it's rear handed to it but now? There would be plenty of motivation for every core world. And second they don't need to copy the GA when it comes to LAC's it would come to them that LAC's in general have some utility since they are easy, cheap and fast to produce and they have seen their effectiveness to a degree in Second BoM.

1)A) Core worlds with much industry and population but NO SDF or defense industry start even farther behind the 8-ball than Sol with its much vaunted SLN, They have to start from scratch todevelop a doctrine to design ships to fit the doctrine, to design the weapons systems then develop the specs before it can lay down the first hull. Then it has to start educating a military cadre.

Unless the entire SLN is recruited from 1 system once the League collapses a lot of core and shell worlds will lay claim to various ships and bases of the SLN. They would also inherit the military personnel as well. Many core worlds will have remnants of the SLN so they will start with essentially SLN doctrine and then build on that with the addition of any new technologies. There are half a dozen major shipyards, who is to say that the successor states will not centre around one or more of those shipyards?

or B)It can buy obsolete SL designs from TIY or any other contractors: hire former FF or BF senior officers to help them train a navy from scratch. Which only puts them at a slight disadvantage from Earth, but still way behind everybody.

They have to start from somewhere or they will always be way behind and defenceless.

C) Assuming it is not too close to a RF world running its own case Buccaneer on its neighbors,how much does each of these worlds know of actual Manty tech with a century of R&D + direct combat experience driving their tech, doctrine, and tactics? What the Solarian newsies reported?

Why does it matter? They know they are behind...that is all they need to know. Once they know they are behind they will start researching in all directions and might even make breakthroughs that put them ahead of the GA.

Like I said before, they have to have somewhere and at some point so the faster they start the faster they come to grips with the problems and better chance to get parity. Plus it might have taken the RMN 80+ years of R and D to get to where it is but ultimately, it would take far shorter period of time for someone to research something they already know is possible. Plus the RMN did all that research with a limited budget, what do you think will be the effect of a dozen or two dozen core worlds dumping copious amounts of money into their R and D? With a lot of money, and highly motivated people they can close the gap quicker than they would otherwise.

2)A) a SINGLE system world on its own resources with a SLN equivalent SDF loses the quantity advantage immediately. It does not have the knowledge or experience of other former core worlds to draw upon, nor their combined resources.

A single system yes but notice I am talking about more than one system, more like 20 systems. Some of the core worlds will form multi system nations, I doubt all will break down on their own.

B) is 100years behind the GA in weapons research, ship design; and 60 years behind in tactics, training, and combat experience.

Not Quite, for a large portion of the first war Haven was using Solarian Technology to close the GAP with Manticore. So if Solarian technology was on par or close to with RMN technology in 1905-1012 time frame then it can't take the successor states a century to close the gap of 10 years. Up until 1912-1913 the SLN would have been technologically inferior to the RMN but not by such a wide margin.

C) Still at least 6 years from hull construction parity, and much farther in technology. Yes you have a huge population and a bunh of good reseach universities, but you are still starting from near SLN information on FTL, sensor capability, EW capability, CM ability, CLACs etc.

So they should just do what? Mass suicide? Since they are numerically, technologically experience wise behind the GA?

3) Core world NOT Renaissance factor member, is still a SINGLE system (see above) still behind on basic research, with unknowable (to you, therefore you can plug in any "out your butt" ability you want into it) capability. Assuming the RF does not have eyes on taking you out post haste before you can become a threat to it or a center for other single systems to coalesce around, thus becoming a multi-system polity with internal political struggles of its own.

And I am talking about multi system nations. Yes they would have internal problems of their own but one of the biggest problem would be that they are defenceless. If I were defenceless I wouldn't care how far behind I am, I would start because wether I start now or 20 years from now I have to start, and the earlier I start, the earlier I get parity. The earlier I start building shipyards and developing doctrine the earlier I get an effective navy.

And besides, the RF would have to tread very, very, very carefully around the GA. If they draw too much attention to themselves the GA might sneeze and accidentally crush them.

I think that Sigs has pretty strong point unless someone hostile comes calling before an effective navy can be established. The point isn't going to be to be able to defend against the GA or the Alignment since you can't do that anyway in the near to intermediate term future. You do need to be able to defend against hostile neighbors with SLN level tech.

The fly swirling around the olive in the martini here is not tech or building capacity. It is political will. These are worlds that have never experienced war and it might be hard to convince them to pay the price that readiness requires.

Don

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n7axw wrote:The fly swirling around the olive in the martini here is not tech or building capacity. It is political will. These are worlds that have never experienced war and it might be hard to convince them to pay the price that readiness requires.

Don

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They have not experience a war YET because of the SLN's existence and reputation. Once that is gone their own population will demand for the government to do something, anything to make them feel safer.


And even if many don't have the will to do much of a buildup the first handful of core and shell worlds that get raided by pirates and/or conquered by some neighbour who had the foresight to start a build up will motivate the once that remain. Once the SLN is no more and their thousands of ships are spread throughout the league and beyond the core and shell worlds who depended on that protection will quickly find themselves out in the cold and will do almost anything to provide some level of defence.

Sigs wrote:If Haven can build 300+ SD's, tens of thousands of LAC's, carriers and DD/CL/CA/BC's from one system in 5 years why can't 10 or 20 core worlds build the same ability even if it is on a much smaller scale in similar time frame?

Why can't core worlds build shipyards that can build everything from SD's on down to LAC's in five years?

To be fair Haven was able to build all those in 5 years after the Peeps had spent the 8 years or so of the first war building Bolthole into a massive complex of shipyards, and training workers.
There are apparently only a few systems in the League that have any military shipyard at all. Even those that do maintain SDF seem to largely buy their ships from the few yards that exist. So unless your ABC nation of core worlds includes one of the 3-6 military yards they're really starting from scratch.

Heck they may not even have access to the plans and full specs of the SLN Scientist class. At least Haven had workforces that were experience in building heavy warships - that gave them a major leg up replicating that infrastructure and skills at Bolthole.

I'm not arguing that any core system can't work up to building squadrons of wallers. Just that between having to build the tools to build the tools, and having to stumble through more trial and error that Haven did, that the timeline is very likely longer than the 5 years you were suggesting. (Quicker if military suppliers like Technodyne are willing to sell plans, yard equipment, and provide training - longer if each group of systems is forced to learn more from scratch and reinvent the wheel.