The Four Horsemen

The E wrote:Proverbs 6:16-19.
Galatians 5:19-21.
Revelation 21:8.

Not the same as what Dante lists, with the exception of lying/bering false witness.

The E wrote:Still, Islam with its focus on asking what you have done this day to live your life according to the teachings of Mohammed is much, much more reasonable than christianity's focus on doing just one act of repentance. Islam asks that you be a good muslim every day, not just when you feel that you will face Allah tomorrow. Christians, it seems to me, get off easy; they don't have to do actual work for heaven to be open to them.

cthia wrote:Man has NO RIGHTS ... heaven. What could either of us do to earn it? Absolutely nothing ... Jesus earned our salvation. We didn't ... But let's be clear. You and I have absolutely NO RIGHTS to heaven.

Right, like my analogy of the pig trying to clean itself, how can a pig sitting in its pin make itself clean enough to walk on your carpeted living room? (assuming you have one) or think the carpet in the oval office. It can't. we can't clean ourselves through any personal act.

As I explained before, it's about the actual true acceptance of Jesus that you are cleansed, not the sycophantic claim "I believe, I'm a Christian!" The mass-murdering rapist from my previous example can walk around the prison (or sit in his cell) all he wants waiving that Bible around, spouting off quotes from it and claiming he "found Jesus, I believe!" But if he really hasn't and goes to sleep each night wishing he was back home with another drugged hooker (or whatever) tied up in his basement, then he hasn't truly repented and is not saved, regardless of what he claims, and God knows it! ... "will spew" him out.

If he really believes and is sorry for his sins, then and only then he can be forgiven.

The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That's right you can even blaspheme God himself and (if you are truly sorry for it - truly repent) even that can be forgiven! but it is through the Holy Spirit that you can accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, so Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (the path of salvation) blocks the path of salvation, and you are then truly damned! Anything else can be forgiven, if you truly accept the forgiveness and are truly sorry for the sin. Just telling some guy in a booth what you did, because grandma will bop you on the ears if you don't, and not really caring or being sorry for doing it, WON'T WORK, that's right you are NOT forgiven, regardless what the guy in the booth says.

("HERESY! HERESY! HERESY! give the Church money and we will force God to let you into Heaven!")
No it doesn't work that way! You must ask God for forgiveness through the blood of Christ (Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross) and truly be sorry for the sin, for it to be forgiven.

I can see how you are confusing church (particularly Catholic dogma) for 'Christianity' and equating it to Muslim dogma "do what we say and give us money and you'll be ok." There you have a point of the similarities, but Islam and TRUE Christianity are opposites, Islam is meant to draw people from Christ and, to do so, of-course it acknowledges Christ and (does what?) downplays his importance as 'just some profit, yea he said some good things, now listen to this other profit ...' it completely erases the very heart and purpose of Christianity and corrupts the teachings. Why do you think they murder Jews? if they are 'basically the same' why not let the Jews have their land back? It belongs to them (from the Torah which the Koran is based on) Why? Because that would give Gods chosen people their land back in peace instead of deigning them their rightful place. This act is one against God and in for Satan.

As stated before, their '12th imam' is the same as the Biblical Anti-Christ, the son of Satan - not God - he will be touted as the 'Messiah' and preform 'miracles' and many will follow believing him the profit of God, and they will be wrong! You do know that Heinrich Himmler, "Heinrich the hangman" Reichsführer of the SS and chief administrator of the NAZI death camps, admired Islam and stated so publicly (he was anti-religion/atheist himself) but recommended Islam for others.

It is not the basic teachings that are opposite bot the ideology, the purpose, the best way to disguise a lie is to wrap it in more truth, so you can't see the lie.

Why are you all wasting so much time arguing about the details of Bronze Age mythology?

MAD-4A wrote:

The E wrote:Proverbs 6:16-19.
Galatians 5:19-21.
Revelation 21:8.

Not the same as what Dante lists, with the exception of lying/bering false witness.

The E wrote:Still, Islam with its focus on asking what you have done this day to live your life according to the teachings of Mohammed is much, much more reasonable than christianity's focus on doing just one act of repentance. Islam asks that you be a good muslim every day, not just when you feel that you will face Allah tomorrow. Christians, it seems to me, get off easy; they don't have to do actual work for heaven to be open to them.

cthia wrote:Man has NO RIGHTS ... heaven. What could either of us do to earn it? Absolutely nothing ... Jesus earned our salvation. We didn't ... But let's be clear. You and I have absolutely NO RIGHTS to heaven.

Right, like my analogy of the pig trying to clean itself, how can a pig sitting in its pin make itself clean enough to walk on your carpeted living room? (assuming you have one) or think the carpet in the oval office. It can't. we can't clean ourselves through any personal act.

As I explained before, it's about the actual true acceptance of Jesus that you are cleansed, not the sycophantic claim "I believe, I'm a Christian!" The mass-murdering rapist from my previous example can walk around the prison (or sit in his cell) all he wants waiving that Bible around, spouting off quotes from it and claiming he "found Jesus, I believe!" But if he really hasn't and goes to sleep each night wishing he was back home with another drugged hooker (or whatever) tied up in his basement, then he hasn't truly repented and is not saved, regardless of what he claims, and God knows it! ... "will spew" him out.

If he really believes and is sorry for his sins, then and only then he can be forgiven.

The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That's right you can even blaspheme God himself and (if you are truly sorry for it - truly repent) even that can be forgiven! but it is through the Holy Spirit that you can accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, so Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (the path of salvation) blocks the path of salvation, and you are then truly damned! Anything else can be forgiven, if you truly accept the forgiveness and are truly sorry for the sin. Just telling some guy in a booth what you did, because grandma will bop you on the ears if you don't, and not really caring or being sorry for doing it, WON'T WORK, that's right you are NOT forgiven, regardless what the guy in the booth says.

("HERESY! HERESY! HERESY! give the Church money and we will force God to let you into Heaven!")
No it doesn't work that way! You must ask God for forgiveness through the blood of Christ (Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross) and truly be sorry for the sin, for it to be forgiven.

I can see how you are confusing church (particularly Catholic dogma) for 'Christianity' and equating it to Muslim dogma "do what we say and give us money and you'll be ok." There you have a point of the similarities, but Islam and TRUE Christianity are opposites, Islam is meant to draw people from Christ and, to do so, of-course it acknowledges Christ and (does what?) downplays his importance as 'just some profit, yea he said some good things, now listen to this other profit ...' it completely erases the very heart and purpose of Christianity and corrupts the teachings. Why do you think they murder Jews? if they are 'basically the same' why not let the Jews have their land back? It belongs to them (from the Torah which the Koran is based on) Why? Because that would give Gods chosen people their land back in peace instead of deigning them their rightful place. This act is one against God and in for Satan.

As stated before, their '12th imam' is the same as the Biblical Anti-Christ, the son of Satan - not God - he will be touted as the 'Messiah' and preform 'miracles' and many will follow believing him the profit of God, and they will be wrong! You do know that Heinrich Himmler, "Heinrich the hangman" Reichsführer of the SS and chief administrator of the NAZI death camps, admired Islam and stated so publicly (he was anti-religion/atheist himself) but recommended Islam for others.

It is not the basic teachings that are opposite bot the ideology, the purpose, the best way to disguise a lie is to wrap it in more truth, so you can't see the lie.

Exactly. It isn't whether you know God. It is whether God knows you. One can claim to be saved, can claim to have repented, but we can only fool ourselves, not God. Unless you have truly repented then your name will not be recorded in the book of life and he will say to you, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

Like the song, nothing but the blood of Jesus can wash away your sins and make you whole.

MAD-4A wrote:It's ALL about Jesus and his sacrifice, that is why the symbol of Christianity was changed, from a fish (denoting his miracles) to the Cross (denoting his sacrifice), it's all about "I am the way, the truth, and the light, and no one stands before the Father (gets to Heaven) except through me!" You don't "have" to live by Jesus's teachings but you should, once you know about them. It is only through truly believing and accepting his sacrifice, that you get to Heaven. A person can go to (Christian) church every single day of their lives, follow all the Church dogma, light all the candles they want and if they don't actually believe in Christ and accept his sacrifice Just say they do, well ... by-by to hell they go!

Another often overlooked aspect of Jesus' life was the fact that he was to lead by example. Jesus was to be the living example to man that the love of God and faith could overcome the weakness of the flesh.

How can anyone from Alcoholics Anonymous teach an alcoholic anything about being and getting sober if they have not done so themselves? How can a sober companion be an example if he has not lived it himself?

Since Jesus was God in the flesh, man cannot say, 'But God, you don't know how hard it is to live as man with the weakness of the flesh.'

Although he did know, omniscient, he humored us. There you have it.

You cannot buy your way into heaven. You cannot work your way into heaven. That would infer an additional cost beyond what Jesus already paid. Salvation is free for the asking. You cannot work for it.

You are saved by grace, not by your works.

Cthia and MAD-4A, I respect both your intellects and ethics, but just can't start to share your faith. My cynical and inquisitive side keeps asking, "And you know this to be true, how?" Plus as I said earlier how do you know that any other deity of mankind's isn't the real deal, but yours is?
As to arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin as you both seem to be doing just strikes me as strange. I have noticed some similar arguments about the peculiar Honorverse physics, and wonder why people take that so seriously as well. To me getting into a serious and heated discussion about what RFC meant in one info dump is akin to discussing what some semi literate nomadic goat herder wrote about 3000 years ago about their conception of a higher being.

Imaginos1892 wrote:Why are you all wasting so much time arguing about the details of Bronze Age mythology?

There is nothing here that is either "Bronze Age" or "mythology". I think you're on the wrong post.

Daryl wrote:Cthia and MAD-4A, I respect both your intellects and ethics, but just can't start to share your faith...

Thank you, and I appreciate your position, but this topic really isn't about 'faith,' it is about the scripture itself and it's meaning. You don't need faith to discuss the meaning or validity of Darwin's 'theory of natural selection'. It would simply be the topic and you would discus it, not weather Darwin really existed.

Daryl wrote:My cynical and inquisitive side keeps asking, "And you know this to be true, how?" Plus as I said earlier how do you know that any other deity of mankind's isn't the real deal, but yours is?

How do you (personally) know for a fact that Darwin really existed? because some book claims he did. as a cynic you could claim that you have no proof that he really existed and that his book was really written by Pres. Grant's 2nd cousin as a prank that got out of hand, and all the documents of his existence were fake!

Daryl wrote:Plus as I said earlier how do you know that any other deity of mankind's isn't the real deal, but yours is?

I don't, that's why it's called "Faith" and not "Fact". As with the documents claiming this 'Charles Darwin' guy really existed, I choose to believe that this other document (the Bible) is real and that the others, that contradict it, are lying. As to specific translations or interpretations, I just have to use my judgment as to which ones are true and which ones aren't (which, as mentioned earlier, is what makes me a Heretic and not a blind-follower). Are the piles of documents 'claiming' that Germans butchered millions of Jews real? or are the couple that 'claim' that they are fake real? I choose to believe that Germans did butcher millions of Jews, you?

Daryl wrote:As to arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin as you both seem to be doing just strikes me as strange.

Never said anything about that, but since you did, I suppose the answered to that is; for Angels to 'dance around the head of a pin', they would have to exist, for that, God would have to exist and therefore, since he is omniscient, however many he wants too, otherwise none.

MAD-4A wrote:

Imaginos1892 wrote:Why are you all wasting so much time arguing about the details of Bronze Age mythology?

There is nothing here that is either "Bronze Age" or "mythology". I think you're on the wrong post.

All right, some of your myths were written in the Iron Age. Still not something to waste time on in the Atomic Age.

MAD-4A wrote:I don't, that's why it's called "Faith" and not "Fact". As with the documents claiming this 'Charles Darwin' guy really existed, I choose to believe that this other document (the Bible) is real and that the others, that contradict it, are lying. As to specific translations or interpretations, I just have to use my judgment as to which ones are true and which ones aren't (which, as mentioned earlier, is what makes me a Heretic and not a blind-follower). Are the piles of documents 'claiming' that Germans butchered millions of Jews real? or are the couple that 'claim' that they are fake real? I choose to believe that Germans did butcher millions of Jews, you?

ahhhh, that explains it! So your evidence for islam and christianity being opposites is "because MAD-4A said so".

Damn, that must make so many things easier for you. The Law is not on your side? Just don't believe in it! Facts do not support you? Facts do not exist, only opinions!

You were talking about Darwin and how you can't prove he exists: Yes, you can. Not only do primary documents written by a Charles Darwin exist, so does documentary evidence of a person by the name of Charles Darwin boarding ships, holding positions, being present at ceremonies etc.
But when it comes to the Bible? We can find documentary evidence of facts mentioned in the Bible (Pontius Pilate did exist), but we cannot find such evidence for its fundamental claims (Jesus feeding the multitudes, Jesus resurrecting, God parting the red sea, God giving laws to the people of Israel, God creating the world in seven days...). This is what mythology is: Real events, told and retold until they acquire supernatural traits.

In other words: Just because you're really deep into the whole Jesus fandom thing doesn't make it more real, just as being a massive Tolkien fan doesn't make Middle-Earth an actual pre-history of England.

The E wrote: In other words: Just because you're really deep into the whole Jesus fandom thing doesn't make it more real, just as being a massive Tolkien fan doesn't make Middle-Earth an actual pre-history of England.

Awww, Mannn... that's just mean.