The Four Horsemen

[quote="The E"

...You do know that anger and wrath are different things in catholic catechism, right? Wrath is anger against the undeserving or when it is sustained for too long or too intensely. God, by definition, cannot be guilty of it: His anger is always directed at the deserving, and always tempered by forgiveness.

I wonder why subtleties like this, which are cornerstones of catholic teaching (which Dante's Divine Comedy is based on) elude someone as well-read on theological matters as you are.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure MAD 4-A is not Roman Catholic. I mean I was raised in a state with just about the worst educational system in the country. We do pretty much let the bishops interpret scripture and make the fancy predictions about the end of the world, and pretty much ignore it all. its basically the Pentecostal groups that try to push the Bible into modernity.

We were taught back in the 50s that the Apostles actually believed that Jesus, as The Christ,would come again in their lifetimes. The New Testament texts were written well (some say centuries) after they died.

Laughable to say the word of god is unchanging in the face of the reason for and history of the KJV of the Bible. equally laughable to translate "Inspired by God" as Dictated by God to ___ who transcribed it word-for-word, and God fact-checked it before publication.

THEN since it was the Gnostics (We have been given the knowlege, rough translation) who probably received the inspiration in the first place, we have declared them heretics.All that for, yes, thankyou, thinking for themselves on the fruits of their listening to God, and daring to declare orthodox teachings ... in error.

God forbid some bishop, Martin Luther, perhaps(?) to question dogma.

The E wrote:Christianity says that by following the example of Jesus, we attain the right to enter the kingdom of heaven.

No it does not.

The E wrote:This whole bullshit about how we can only obtain grace because Jesus died for our sins? It's meaningless...

This shows that you have absolutely no understanding of Christianity.
The Bible does not say 'do what Jesus tells you and go to heaven' it clearly states that the 'blood of the lamb' (i.e. Jesus) is the only way to heaven. It is only through accepting his sacrifice that sin is cleansed. THAT is the very basis of the religion and calling to BS shows you have no concept of the religion and disavows any other claims by you on Christianity.

The E wrote:...You do know that anger and wrath are different things in catholic catechism, right? Wrath is anger against the undeserving or when it is sustained for too long or too intensely. God, by definition, cannot be guilty of it: His anger is always directed at the deserving, and always tempered by forgiveness.

various texts and translations of both the Bible and of Dante say "Wrath" and "Anger", anyone well read would have realized this. there are texts that state "the wrath of God" and "God's anger" there are also various translations of Dante that list "Wrath" and "Anger".

I included both (to prevent 'well this translation says "Wrath"' or '... says "anger"').

pappilon wrote:I'm pretty sure MAD 4-A is not Roman Catholic. I mean I was raised in a state with just about the worst educational system in the country. We do pretty much let the bishops interpret scripture and make the fancy predictions about the end of the world, and pretty much ignore it all. its basically the Pentecostal groups that try to push the Bible into modernity.

We were taught back in the 50s that the Apostles actually believed that Jesus, as The Christ,would come again in their lifetimes. The New Testament texts were written well (some say centuries) after they died.

Laughable to say the word of god is unchanging in the face of the reason for and history of the KJV of the Bible. equally laughable to translate "Inspired by God" as Dictated by God to ___ who transcribed it word-for-word, and God fact-checked it before publication.

THEN since it was the Gnostics (We have been given the knowlege, rough translation) who probably received the inspiration in the first place, we have declared them heretics.All that for, yes, thankyou, thinking for themselves on the fruits of their listening to God, and daring to declare orthodox teachings ... in error.

God forbid some bishop, Martin Luther, perhaps(?) to question dogma.

Thank you for an elegant reply. Someone can write one.

No, I'm not Roman Catholic, I am a non-denominational Christian Heretic. Unfortunately I am not fluent in ancient Hebrew or Greek so I do have to rely on English translations.

Still looking for "the Pope will be able to dictate to God who God can and can't let into heaven." Haven't found it yet. (lol)

MAD-4A wrote:

The E wrote:Christianity says that by following the example of Jesus, we attain the right to enter the kingdom of heaven.

No it does not.

Then why do you teach people about him? Why do you talk about the 7 sins or the ten commandments as if they matter when they, according to you, don't?

To be accepted into christian heaven, you need to accept Jesus as your saviour and repent your sins. You can't do that if you don't know what either are, you can't learn what the benefit of doing this is unless you've studied the bible. And, on the other hand, you can avoid a lot of it if you follow Jesus' teachings.

Therefore, following the teachings of Jesus is instrumental in gaining access to heaven.

The E wrote:This whole bullshit about how we can only obtain grace because Jesus died for our sins? It's meaningless...

This shows that you have absolutely no understanding of Christianity.
The Bible does not say 'do what Jesus tells you and go to heaven' it clearly states that the 'blood of the lamb' (i.e. Jesus) is the only way to heaven. It is only through accepting his sacrifice that sin is cleansed. THAT is the very basis of the religion and calling to BS shows you have no concept of the religion and disavows any other claims by you on Christianity.

It is meaningless, though. We don't call people good christians because of how strongly they believe Jesus died for their sins, we call them good christians based on their adherence to the values of sacrifice and selflessness that christianity teaches. In terms of what you have to do in order to be a good christian or get to heaven, Jesus' nature as part of the trinity or the manner of his demise do not matter in the slightest.

MAD-4A wrote:

The E wrote:...You do know that anger and wrath are different things in catholic catechism, right? Wrath is anger against the undeserving or when it is sustained for too long or too intensely. God, by definition, cannot be guilty of it: His anger is always directed at the deserving, and always tempered by forgiveness.

various texts and translations of both the Bible and of Dante say "Wrath" and "Anger", anyone well read would have realized this. there are texts that state "the wrath of God" and "God's anger" there are also various translations of Dante that list "Wrath" and "Anger".

I included both (to prevent 'well this translation says "Wrath"' or '... says "anger"').

Wait, so because the KJV is a bad translation, Dante is wrong?

You know, the jews and muslims do have a point in treating translations of the Torah and Quran as non-authoritative....

The E wrote:In terms of what you have to do in order to be a good christian or get to heaven, Jesus' nature as part of the trinity or the manner of his demise do not matter in the slightest

ABSOLUTELY, POSTIVELY, WRONG! STOP!

To be saved, you MUST first accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. If it had not been for Jesus' sacrifice, man would have been destroyed.

No one gets to the father except through the son. Also, Jesus had to die in the manner that he did. There was no other way. The prophecy had to be fulfilled.

YOU ARE WAY OFF BASE!

The E wrote:Then why do you teach people about him? Why do you talk about the 7 sins or the ten commandments as if they matter when they, according to you, don't?

3 questions... the 7 deadly sins were from Dante and an "infallible" Catholic Pope, who liked them (obviously oblivious to the errors) pushed preaching these non-biblical "sins" over actual teachings, and rather then be burned as 'heretics' the rest of ignorant Catholicism took them to be 'scripture'.

The E wrote:Then why do you teach ... the ten commandments as if they matter when they, according to you, don't?

because you 'should' follow them, that is the way to be a 'good' Christian, most of the teachings of Judaism are still valid, just not the 'don't eat this, chop that part off...eeww.' To live the way God wants you too, you should try to live this way, but...

The E wrote:Then why do you teach people about him?

It's ALL about Jesus and his sacrifice, that is why the symbol of Christianity was changed, from a fish (denoting his miracles) to the Cross (denoting his sacrifice), it's all about "I am the way, the truth, and the light, and no one stands before the Father (gets to Heaven) except through me!" You don't "have" to live by Jesus's teachings but you should, once you know about them. It is only through truly believing and accepting his sacrifice, that you get to Heaven. A person can go to (Christian) church every single day of their lives, follow all the Church dogma, light all the candles they want and if they don't actually believe in Christ and accept his sacrifice Just say they do, well ... by-by to hell they go!

Yet someone else could live for 50 years as a secret rapist/murderer ... (insert crime of choice here) and one day get caught and while sitting on death-row, find a bible, and out of boredom read it, find Jesus and TRULY repent (actually be sorry and ask forgiveness) for his sins and (yes) he will find Heaven. so you see, the 'living a certain way' had no effect on the outcome it was the BS. It was the TRUE belief in Jesus that was what made the difference, not the life style.

Now if someone's just a run-of-the-mill sinner (honky-tonks, drinking, fornication, a little adultery and drug-alcohol use) and they find Jesus and truly believe, then yes, they should not only follow the teachings of Jesus/the Bible but they should want too. That's how to tell a 'true Christian' from a 'good Christian'.

The E wrote:To be accepted into christian heaven, you need to accept Jesus as your saviour and repent your sins. You can't do that if you don't know what either are, you can't learn what the benefit of doing this is unless you've studied the bible. And, on the other hand, you can avoid a lot of it if you follow Jesus' teachings. ... Therefore, following the teachings of Jesus is instrumental in gaining access to heaven.

Again - no - to be accepted into so-called 'Christian' society (as with the first example above) then yes, but if you don't truly believe, repent and accept the sacrifice of the Crucifixion then your works don't mean squat! "I will spew you out!"

A fundamental difference in Islam, which is all about your works, what you did to "appease the God." "I prayed on the floor every day facing some city in the middle of the desert", oh but wait, the planet is round, doesn't that mean that Muslims in the Western Hemisphere need to pray facing down to the ground?

Islam has more in common with 'basic' (tribal/druidic) religion than true Christianity, the only real difference is 'appeasing' a singular God vs. plural Gods, with your own works.

The E wrote:It is meaningless, though. We don't (call) people good christians because of how strongly they believe Jesus died for their sins, we call them good christians based on their adherence to the values of sacrifice and selflessness that christianity teaches. In terms of what you have to do in order to be a good christian or get to heaven, Jesus' nature as part of the trinity or the manner of his demise do not matter in the slightest.

key word here is "call" accepted into "good Christian society" on Earth is different than actually getting into Heaven. Lots of 'Crusaders' were heroes of "good Catholic society" after they butchered thousands of innocent people, many of which were fellow Christian as well as Jews 'Gods chosen people' and relatives of Jesus himself. Several 'infallible' Popes were Jew hating anti-Semites - how do you claim to 'love and worship' someone and at the same time hate their race and religion? Jesus was himself an Orthodox Jew! He went to temple, he celebrated the Jewish holidays, I'm quite sure he (even though Catholic depictions fail to show it) wore a Kippah/Yarmulke. These were 'good' Catholics (the POPE!) murdering the people of Christ! (now you don't need to ask why I'm a Heretic anymore!)

The E wrote:Wait, so because the KJV is a bad translation, Dante is wrong?

They have nothing to do with each other, Dante was a 13th century Italian Catholic. the King James Bible was published in the 17th century, about 300 years after he died (no I don't think he was a ghost writer ).

The E wrote:You know, the jews and muslims do have a point in treating translations of the Torah and Quran as non-authoritative....

I agree, whish I could read ancient Greek and Hebrew, but I have problems leaning other languages.

cthia wrote:

The E wrote:In terms of what you have to do in order to be a good christian or get to heaven, Jesus' nature as part of the trinity or the manner of his demise do not matter in the slightest

ABSOLUTELY, POSTIVELY, WRONG! STOP!

To be saved, you MUST first accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. If it had not been for Jesus' sacrifice, man would have been destroyed.

No one gets to the father except through the son. Also, Jesus had to die in the manner that he did. There was no other way. The prophecy had to be fulfilled.

YOU ARE WAY OFF BASE!

Okay, I shall concede that I am.

Now, can you properly explain how two religions that teach many of the same things are opposite to each other, and how the existence of religious war proves that they are? Still not clear on that.

MAD-4A wrote:

The E wrote:Then why do you teach people about him? Why do you talk about the 7 sins or the ten commandments as if they matter when they, according to you, don't?

3 questions... the 7 deadly sins were from Dante and an "infallible" Catholic Pope, who liked them (obviously oblivious to the errors) pushed preaching these non-biblical "sins" over actual teachings, and rather then be burned as 'heretics' the rest of ignorant Catholicism took them to be 'scripture'.

Proverbs 6:16-19.
Galatians 5:19-21.
Revelation 21:8.

A fundamental difference in Islam, which is all about your works, what you did to "appease the God." "I prayed on the floor every day facing some city in the middle of the desert", oh but wait, the planet is round, doesn't that mean that Muslims in the Western Hemisphere need to pray facing down to the ground?

You know, if you make statements like that, they really undermine your insistence that you can make statements like "Islam is the opposite of christianity" with any sort of authority.

Still, Islam with its focus on asking what you have done this day to live your life according to the teachings of Mohammed is much, much more reasonable than christianity's focus on doing just one act of repentance. Islam asks that you be a good muslim every day, not just when you feel that you will face Allah tomorrow. Christians, it seems to me, get off easy; they don't have to do actual work for heaven to be open to them.

The E wrote:Christianity says that by following the example of Jesus, we attain the right to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Man has NO RIGHTS as far as entering into the kingdom of heaven. What could either of us do to earn it? Absolutely nothing. Man had become so sinful, that none of our sacrifices would work any longer. Not our best sheep. Not our best crops. Not our own son or daughter. We had absolutely nothing left to give that was worth the price that needed to be paid. So God gave Jesus, his only begotten son, to man. That whosoever believe in him should not perish. Salvation is not man's gift from God. Salvation is God's gift to his son. Jesus earned our salvation. We didn't. Man's gift from God, is Jesus. Our reward, will be given unto us in Heaven.

But let's be clear. You and I have absolutely NO RIGHTS to heaven.