Genetic engineering ?

pappilon wrote:Again The good doctor's grandmother or such was a genetic slave custom built by Manpower, They refuse to accept Beowulf's genetic restrictions. Why are we expecting Manpower, or even the Genetic Uplift Department to follow the rules they rejected 600 years ago? IIRC [yes, I know- ] all the people in the GA with weird features, except perhaps Pritchard, can trace their lineage to rescued genetic slaves

They could have continued to experiment as they wished and modified their genetic slaves with whatever mods they wished. Beowulf was accepting the product of those illicit experiments and spreading those genes from the very center of human civilization. The Haven sector was doing exactly the same thing. The MAlign had succeeded in getting the most effective merritocracies of the galaxy to disseminate their best work. They persuaded their enemies to be their distribution system for heaven sakes! Let the SL remain corrupt enough to have a demand for genetic slaves but honest enough to be sustainable. Let the Haven sector continue fighting genetic slavery and by doing so incorporating the gene mods into their gene pools.

Why destroy that effective distribution system someone else is paying for? The only answer I can see is that THEY wanted to be the alpha and omega of the galactic uplift. No one else can contribute or the whole plan would be soiled somehow. Hubris. Had the goal of genetic uplift been paramount, they would have known they had won and been satisfied.

PeterZ wrote:

pappilon wrote:Again The good doctor's grandmother or such was a genetic slave custom built by Manpower, They refuse to accept Beowulf's genetic restrictions. Why are we expecting Manpower, or even the Genetic Uplift Department to follow the rules they rejected 600 years ago? IIRC [yes, I know- ] all the people in the GA with weird features, except perhaps Pritchard, can trace their lineage to rescued genetic slaves

They could have continued to experiment as they wished and modified their genetic slaves with whatever mods they wished. Beowulf was accepting the product of those illicit experiments and spreading those genes from the very center of human civilization. The Haven sector was doing exactly the same thing. The MAlign had succeeded in getting the most effective merritocracies of the galaxy to disseminate their best work. They persuaded their enemies to be their distribution system for heaven sakes! Let the SL remain corrupt enough to have a demand for genetic slaves but honest enough to be sustainable. Let the Haven sector continue fighting genetic slavery and by doing so incorporating the gene mods into their gene pools.

Why destroy that effective distribution system someone else is paying for? The only answer I can see is that THEY wanted to be the alpha and omega of the galactic uplift. No one else can contribute or the whole plan would be soiled somehow. Hubris. Had the goal of genetic uplift been paramount, they would have known they had won and been satisfied.

Exactly. I've been arguing the same thing. Given time, they could make the changes they want. Quietly taking over a planet by improving a group of people genetically so that a generation or two down the line, all the power folk are part of your group would work reasonably well.

Then gradually move to get more of the "good genes" into the population. It should not be difficult if a lot of people use artificial wombs.

PeterZ wrote:... Beowulf was accepting the product of those illicit experiments and spreading those genes from the very center of human civilization. The Haven sector was doing exactly the same thing. The MAlign had succeeded in getting the most effective merritocracies of the galaxy to disseminate their best work.

Wait, what! Signatories of The Cherwell Convention are accepting these illegal genetic experiments and spreading them? By what not pushing nonconventional gengineered pleasure slaves out of the airlock after rescuing them? That for you means "we approve of what you are doing"?

pappilon wrote:

PeterZ wrote:... Beowulf was accepting the product of those illicit experiments and spreading those genes from the very center of human civilization. The Haven sector was doing exactly the same thing. The MAlign had succeeded in getting the most effective merritocracies of the galaxy to disseminate their best work.

Wait, what! Signatories of The Cherwell Convention are accepting these illegal genetic experiments and spreading them? By what not pushing nonconventional gengineered pleasure slaves out of the airlock after rescuing them? That for you means "we approve of what you are doing"?

A distinction without an effective difference. Beowulf disapproves of the process but not the product. They would stop Manpower's ghoulish experiments if they could without penalizing the human beings generated from that process. So long as the SL continued to allow Manpower to produce genetically tailored humans, Beowulf and the Haven sector would have continued to free those people and accept them into their societies no matter how extreme these people have been molded. Given enough time and enough freed genetic slaves and the galaxy would have had their uplift. Having the Alpha lines marry into the galactic power structures and slowly argue for changing the Beowulf code would be much easier in time because of all the wilder mods already in the human gene pool.

PeterZ wrote:A distinction without an effective difference. Beowulf disapproves of the process but not the product. They would stop Manpower's ghoulish experiments if they could without penalizing the human beings generated from that process. So long as the SL continued to allow Manpower to produce genetically tailored humans, Beowulf and the Haven sector would have continued to free those people and accept them into their societies no matter how extreme these people have been molded. Given enough time and enough freed genetic slaves and the galaxy would have had their uplift. Having the Alpha lines marry into the galactic power structures and slowly argue for changing the Beowulf code would be much easier in time because of all the wilder mods already in the human gene pool.

The number of freed slaves seem far too low for this to be a particularly effective means of disseminating those genes.

Plus it's hardly foolproof as Honorverse genetics is more than up to the task to scrubbing the objectionable genes from the sperm and eggs of the ex-slaves so those genes aren't passed on. Now I doubt that Beowulf or Manticore were doing that on any kind of widespread basis - but they have the capability to. (I assume at least a few ex-slaves would want certain of there genes from being passed on to their offspring - but that's a personal choice, not a policy)

Still I think we all agree that the MAlign chose means that blocked them from long ago achieving their stated ends.

I wonder of Honor might not have inadvertently increased the adoption of the Meyerdahl mods on Grayson. Her armsmen know just how deadly she is. I wonder how many of those families associated most strongly with the Harrington Guard will opt for the mods? Theirs is also a heavy grav world, 1.17g to be exact. So, those mods wouldn't be unreasonable. They would also give those armsmen the physical attributes to be much more effective at guarding their Steadholder. Well, the offspring of the current guard anyway. With Lady Allison's genetics practice located on premises, one would be confident the mods would be done right. Upon further reflection, one wonders how far Hartingtons will push the mods? IIRC The Tester test those He loves most especially hard. Considering just how strenuous Lady Hartington has been tested already, He loves her dearly......and she has a long life left to live and experience more of His Testing. It be hooves a Harrington to be prepared, eh?

Jonathan_S wrote:

PeterZ wrote:A distinction without an effective difference. Beowulf disapproves of the process but not the product. They would stop Manpower's ghoulish experiments if they could without penalizing the human beings generated from that process. So long as the SL continued to allow Manpower to produce genetically tailored humans, Beowulf and the Haven sector would have continued to free those people and accept them into their societies no matter how extreme these people have been molded. Given enough time and enough freed genetic slaves and the galaxy would have had their uplift. Having the Alpha lines marry into the galactic power structures and slowly argue for changing the Beowulf code would be much easier in time because of all the wilder mods already in the human gene pool.

The number of freed slaves seem far too low for this to be a particularly effective means of disseminating those genes.

Plus it's hardly foolproof as Honorverse genetics is more than up to the task to scrubbing the objectionable genes from the sperm and eggs of the ex-slaves so those genes aren't passed on. Now I doubt that Beowulf or Manticore were doing that on any kind of widespread basis - but they have the capability to. (I assume at least a few ex-slaves would want certain of there genes from being passed on to their offspring - but that's a personal choice, not a policy)

Still I think we all agree that the MAlign chose means that blocked them from long ago achieving their stated ends.(Bold mine)

Yes, Thank you. Acceptance is NOT approval and it is not so small a distinction with little effective difference. It is the huge difference between being a moral society and an immoral one. I suppose genetic purity could be such a racial thing that the freed offending slaves could be sterilized or undergo treatment to destroy the possibility of these traits being passed down.

If Assbert with his sons Dogbert, Catbert, & B+E-Gbert were not bent on taking over the universe, all these past couple of pages would be valid. No way will the evil empire dilute their precious Alpha genomes with even Beta genomes. They have set themselves up as the genetic supermen (gross misreading of Neitzsche)and are willing to cleanse their universe of normals, genies, anyone not of their Genetic Uplift department unless they are willing to bow to their natural masters and accept their place as non citizens below genetic slaves.

Of course acceptance is not approval. So what? The MAlign had succeeded in getting their enemies to distribute the products of the very experiments that caused the initial contention. They had won. All they needed to do was marry into the ruling houses just as the RF has done. Once the genetic mods are distributed a bit more widely, the deep cover agents' work to sway public opinion will gain traction. By now much of the galaxy would have been sympathetic to much of the MAlign's stated goals.

PeterZ wrote:The MAlign had succeeded in getting their enemies to distribute the products of the very experiments that caused the initial contention.

The MAlign has NOT won because the spread of modifications tested in isolation on various slave lines does nothing to spread the Star Lines and specifically the Alpha Line. The MAlign's ultimate goal is for the Alpha Line genome to displace the "normals" completely. That's why they need the SL to disintegrate into chaos and civil war -- they need to "thin the herd" to accelerate domination by the Star Lines.

Weird Harold wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The MAlign had succeeded in getting their enemies to distribute the products of the very experiments that caused the initial contention.

The MAlign has NOT won because the spread of modifications tested in isolation on various slave lines does nothing to spread the Star Lines and specifically the Alpha Line. The MAlign's ultimate goal is for the Alpha Line genome to displace the "normals" completely. That's why they need the SL to disintegrate into chaos and civil war -- they need to "thin the herd" to accelerate domination by the Star Lines.

All the MAlign needed to do was seed those star line traits they wanted into their genetic slaves. Beowulf et al have already conceded to disseminating any mods the genetic slaves wanted to keep. So include the mods of the star lines. They were initially tested on the slave lines anyway.
The reason they didn't is that very trait that scared the piss out of the survivors of The Final War. The MAlign wanted to dominate and supplant their benighted inferiors. They couldn't care less about Leonard Detweiler's true goals beyond justifying their domination. Hubris, plain and simple.