Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?

n7axw wrote:And, of course, only a certain author whose work we have been discussing knows whether it will be cleared up or not...

Nah, we'll keep arguing anyhow.

Brigade XO wrote:
4th. I earlier suggested that the MSN/MSDF, while having stood down in the surrender to the GA, was unlikely to have shut down their passive sensors and would have been able to see any impeller signatures -or launch signatures- from the GA ships. That would include the Mesan System tactical sensor net and local Astro Control. The GA DID NOT damage or destroy ANYTHING in orbit or even in-system (that we know of yet). So, while it is probable that the Mandarins's tame press and other new services my carry the Alignment version of Manticore committing an EE violation on Mesa, there WILL be good sensor records (not made by the GA) to show it didn't happen.

Unless Manticore doctored the logs before letting the media see. Then the Mesans claim the logs are doctored and Manticore is screwed.

Manticore could let the media get the first look at the logs, but what happens if the logs implicate Manticore? If murdering millions of their own people is okay, do you really think forgery is a step too far?

quite possibly a cat wrote:Unless Manticore doctored the logs before letting the media see. Then the Mesans claim the logs are doctored and Manticore is screwed.

Manticore could let the media get the first look at the logs, but what happens if the logs implicate Manticore? If murdering millions of their own people is okay, do you really think forgery is a step too far?

The SL media will assume the logs are doctored. They are very familiar with how the SL does business, and do you think the SLN would release incriminating information?

Brigade XO wrote:All sorts of questions come to mind about what was happening in the Mesa System from the time that the combined GA fleet showed up till the Albrect Clean Up was triggered.

1st. We haven't see what (other than sending a single DD in as advance stealth scout) the GA did right as it droped out of hyper IN A MASSIVE CLUMP. At the very least, I would have expected some contingent- of BC or other ships, possibly to include one or two SDs- to come out of hyper in an attack/blocking move at the Mesa end of the Mesa-Visagoth wormhole. At the very least, that would have stopped- shortly- any ships comming in from Visagoth from having an impact on the developing situation as even a DD parked relative to the opening of the inbound lane would be able to kill anything other than a freighter that came through. We also don't know what Visagoth has in the way of a SDF even if it decided it wanted to send forces to Mesa. Based on all the previous discussions in the boards, the last thing they would have wanted to try would be throwing a squadron of anyting through what they have to presume is a wormhole defended on the other end. If they send something, it is going to be through hyper.

Tenth Fleet’s objective was the inner system. The terminus wasn’t going anywhere. They had no quarrel with neutral shipping. They weren’t worried about the (nonexistent) Visigoth System-Defense Force because, it was, well . . . nonexistent. All of the military potential of the system was pretty much inside the hyper-limit. When they dropped out of space just outside the limit, they were between Mesa and the terminus. No one was getting to it from the system without getting past them, but unless they wanted to simply open fire on anything already in the transit queue, they couldn’t have stopped those already in the queue from leaving the system before they got there anyway. And anything in transit between the limit and the terminus was already able to hyper out the instant anyone came after it, so not even Manticoran LACs could have run down a slow, plodding freighter before it simply vanished. (Intercepting a ship outside the hyper-limit and "forcing it to heave to" in the Honorverse isn't as simple as a revenue cutter overtaking a Liberian-flagged freighter off Sandy Hook and compelling it to stop. There's a reason pirates operate inside the limit rather than outside it.)

It is, indeed, true that Mike and Lester could have deployed smaller forces to different places in and around the system. Their objectives, however, were pretty handily met by the deployment they used. For that matter, I somehow don’t recall telling you at any point that a destroyer flotilla wasn’t detached to head for the terminus after the fleet made its alpha translation. I didn’t tell you it was because that decision wasn’t really germane to the focus of the action which truly mattered: i.e., the stand down (in an act of unbridled sanity) of the MSN as the biggest damned fleet it had ever seen barreled straight in on the planet.

Did I really need to show you all the mechanics of the military installations in orbit being occupied by Manticoran and Havenite Marines as Tenth Fleet entered Mesa orbit? Did you really need to see the surrendered ships’ crews using their life pods and small craft to take everyone but a tiny caretaker crew off (as we’ve seen done before) even before the ships are boarded? Did I need to break down for you where every pinnace was at any given moment?

This is a pair of highly experienced navies doing something both of them have done many, many times, and given that Shadow was already running long, I opted not to go through all the details between the time at which Tenth Fleet arrived in system, the MSN abandoned ship, the system government officially surrendered, the initial landing parties were dispatched from the ships in orbit, and the explosions occurred.

Brigade XO wrote:
2nd. There are always going to be the possibilities of merchant shipping being too far out within the hyperlimit to intercept either on a course where the GA comes into the hyperlimit from or by comming out of hyper somewhere else on the sphear of said hyperlimit. While a lot of traffic will have been from or to the wormhole, a lot (possibly a very lot) will be on course in or from other directions. Mike and the GA TF came "generally" from the direction of Meyers to get to Mesa even of the roundevous location would probably not have been on a stright line.

Mesa in relativly close to Talbot Quadrant and we can presume some volume of traffic which would use the wormhole to get to Mesa would then probably even skip the Mesa System unless it had cargo it must take directly there instead of dropping at a freight transhipment platform by the wormhole. "Just passing through" without stopping usually means you don't have to pay customs duties or be boarded for inspection- you pay your transit fee and head on the best economical course to where you need to be next. There is also all that lovely Manpower and Alignment traffic which may not want to use the wormhole in any case and just be comming in from or going to almost anywhere else. At the very least, a bunch of those ships may have played with the actual direction they appear to have come out of hyperspace from to mask last port of call, same with heading out-system at one heading but changing once in hyperspace.

I’m not sure exactly what the point is in this section of your post.

To summarize, Mike came generally from the direction of Meyers, true, but as I suggested above, her actual hyper translation was made between the Mesa Terminus and the Mesa hyper-limit expressly to get between the planet and anything that might have tried to flee to the terminus. She then detached a flotilla of destroyers with orders to secure the space around the terminus. As I also said above, she couldn’t prevent anything already in close proximity to it from making transit before those destroyers arrived. Had she dropped a separate force out of hyper directly on the terminus, she might have been able to prevent that, but — frankly — it was, ah . . . extraordinarily unlikely. We've seen how difficult it is to cut a hyper translation that fine in the vicinity of a terminus, so the odds were very, very, very, very high that any force detached to the terminus would have arrived too far out to do anything except fire missiles at merchantships that refused to heave to and went ahead with their transits.

Because of that, seizing the terminus itself wasn’t very high on her list of immediate priorities. Ultimately, of course she needed control of it! But in the short term, that was a non-issue, and she had no reason to believe that the question of who might have had sensors (and what those sensors might/might not have been able to see) was going to be particularly important. At any rate, she had taken control of the terminus well before any bombs started going off anywhere on Mesa. In fact, she'd shut the terminus down completely by that time.

As an aside, while there was a fair amount of merchant traffic in the Mesa System when Tenth Fleet turned up, there wasn't as much as I think you are suggesting. The Manticore System sees a ton of traffic pretty much every day; Mesa, not so much, and remember the size of Honorverse freighters.

Let’s remember that the port of San Diego handles about 2,800,000 tons of cargo per year and is one of the US’s 30 top container ship ports. So, let’s be generous and assume that all 30 of them handle 2.8 million tons a year apiece, and you get 84,000,000 tons . . . which works out to about 16.8 moderate-sized Honorverse freighters. Some of them will be smaller than that, and an entire star system will have a lot more consumers (like about 15 times the total population of the United States). But even if an equivalent tonnage per capita is being shipped in and out for that large a population, the total of those moderate-sized freighters which would be required rises to only about 250 per year and a year is 365 days long. That works out to about 0.69 ships a day.

Because of this, Mesa probably sees no more than four or five really big merchies arriving or departing each day. Now, any one of those ships is likely to be in-system for several days (aside from the ones simply dropping off a few hundred thousand tons of cargo at the terminus for transshipment elsewhere). That means that in addition to those which are arriving/departing there are the ones which are unloading, or loading, or a combination of the above. So the total shipping in-system on any given day is probably two or three times that. Call it 15 hyper-capable ships in Mesan space at any given time, including the ones who are simply transshipping cargo at terminus warehouses or whatever. Hence my comment about the volume of shipping into and out of the system.

The point of this diversion is that there really aren’t as many potential hyper-capable sensor platforms as some people appear to be assuming, on the one hand, and there isn’t that huge a herd of antelopes for Tenth Fleet’s wolves to chase down, on the other. And since chasing down freighters came about 19th on Mike Henke’s top 10 list of Things to Do, and since her initial placement meant that anything inside the hyper-limit was highly unlikely to evade her, no matter how hard it tried, she didn’t waste a lot of time worrying about it. This means that most ships which were underway and close to the terminus or already across the hyper-limit got out before she shut the terminus down and that nothing that wasn’t already at the terminus or between it and the hyper-limit when she arrived got out. Not until she chose to let it out.

Brigade XO wrote:
3rd. While the GA brought a stupendous number of SD to bear on the Mesa system, I believe it also had a lot of lighter ships. It would make a great amount of sense if some of those would have been tasked to various places around the system hyper limit as stoppers for several scenarios. One would be to catch merchant shipping already comming into to the system (inside the hyper limit) or either try to run from orbit or are already heading out. How many of said merchants would have been Manpower or related controled plus ships beloinging to various Transtellars which at minimum might be carrying slaves. It also fits with the change in tactics of taking SL flagged shipping -which might have totaly ligitimate (non-slave) business there but are now just prizes. The other is to put combat ships closer to any number of MSN/MSDF ships than the primary GA force (of SDs) such that the GA lighter ships would be positions to "distract or dissuade" any MSDF ships from running (away to to the wormhole) or othewise interfearing with the hoped for surrender of the MSDF.
We have only seen a tiny bit of what happens so perhaps we will get to see a bagging of merchant ships such as Mike did at Meyers. Every little bit helps...big smile

Why is Tenth Fleet interested in catching all these ships? Oh, yeah, as you say, every little bit helps, but the only ones in which they would have a burning interest would be the slave transports, and there really aren’t a whole heck of a lot of those at any given time. Mike and Lester aren't here as part of a commerce raiding strategy; they’re here to conquer a star system. Capturing merchant traffic comes way lower in priority than that. Besides, at the risk of redundancy, they did capture all the merchant shipping which hadn't already cleared the hyper-limit.

Tenth Fleet had nowhere near the number of units that would have been necessary to establish some kind of perimeter security all the way around the hyper-limit (which is, remember, a sphere and not a circle). Nor was there any tactical reason it should have attempted to, so it didn’t try. Actually pouncing on the terminus would have been a neat flourish, but Mike wasn’t interested in neat flourishes. Especially flourishes that wouldn't have accomplished anything, since (as I've said) any merchie already in the queue would have had ample time to make transit before her ships could reach it, and anything which had already crossed the hyper-limit headed for the terminus but not yet reached it would have been impossible to intercept, even with Manticore’s acceleration advantage, before it hypered out.

Brigade XO wrote:
4th. I earlier suggested that the MSN/MSDF, while having stood down in the surrender to the GA, was unlikely to have shut down their passive sensors and would have been able to see any impeller signatures -or launch signatures- from the GA ships. That would include the Mesan System tactical sensor net and local Astro Control. The GA DID NOT damage or destroy ANYTHING in orbit or even in-system (that we know of yet). So, while it is probable that the Mandarins's tame press and other new services my carry the Alignment version of Manticore committing an EE violation on Mesa, there WILL be good sensor records (not made by the GA) to show it didn't happen.

What makes you think that if those sensor records exist anyone inclined to suspect Manticore won’t point out that by the time anyone but the Grand Alliance saw the data in them they’d already been in the Grand Alliance’s possession? Ergo, they cannot be trusted, since the people they purport to clear of wrongdoing have had ample opportunity to doctor them.

I’m not saying that such records do or don’t exist, although most of the MSN ships in the system had been completely stripped of their crews, as per Mike’s directions, and all of the merchant traffic still inside the hyper-limit had surrendered as well, well before the explosions began. In addition, a star system is big. Things that don’t want to be found are difficult to find at the best of times, and there are very large stretches of its volume that aren’t being particularly closely monitored at any given moment. Nobody spends a lot of time watching shipping patterns in the South Atlantic. They watch shipping movement in known shipping lanes and in the approaches to major ports. Weather satellites may be interested in what’s happening out there in hurricane alley, but they’re not the best platforms for monitoring ship movements. So the probability that one of those 15 or so merchantships (less, of course, any already in the transit queue or between the terminus and the limit, who'd already hypered out) was watching the critical volumes out-system from Mesa is not nearly as high as I think you have assumed.

What I’m saying is that even if sensor records do exist, they may or may not actually have a window on where the explosions occurred. Moreover, even if they exist, they prove nothing in the eyes of anyone not already strongly inclined to take Manticore and the Grand Alliance’s word for what happened. (After all, whether or not the records are believed will depend on whether or not the someone in question is inclined to take Manticore and the Grand Alliance's word that the records in question are genuine. If you don't trust them already, you won't be.) And, for reasons which will become apparent in the book, even if those records existed, and even if they were trusted, they wouldn’t make a whole lot of difference. And I have to point out that anyone who isn't a blatant partisan of the GA damned well should dismiss any sensor recording "proof" of their innocence.

Brigade XO wrote:
One of those things that will not ring true from the timing and placement of all those nuclear explosions is where they happened. Remote "weather stations", an remote-uninhabited -nature reserve out in some ocean, etc. Sure, the screaming and finger pointing and beating the drum of "murderous neo-barbarians" will go on, but some people are going to have to wonder why a bunch of experienced and apparently otherwise extremly precise people who are using sophistocated targeting systems and weapons would be shooting at such odd places- and doing a really good job of hitting ONLY those really odd places along with a lot of other targets that don't have any conceivable value even if the planet hadn't surrendered.
This is NOT FF acting on the orders of OFS or the local political despot punishing rebelling subjects.
But, then, when does logic and reason enter into a lot of political rhetoric and propaganda?

Of course there are going to be tons of questions about why explosions occurred where they occurred!

The problem is that arguing that “experienced and otherwise extremely precise people who are using sophisticated targeting systems and weapons” wouldn’t be shooting at such odd places doesn’t really solve anything. Somebody blew them up, and for your argument to do Tenth Fleet any good, there’d have to be a countervailing explanation for why anyone else would be interested in blowing up such odd places. Even if you accept the Grand Alliance’s contention that there is something called the “Mesan Alignment” out there, why is the Mesan Alignment killing millions of Mesans? What motive would it have? Coming up with an alternate reason for the explosions would be a nontrivial exercise . . . unless you expect to convince the galaxy at large that this "Alignment" is so malignant that it would cheerfully kill millions of citizens of the system in which it originated simply to cast suspicion on the Grand Alliance.

There is an alternate explanation, and Anton Zilwicki has already put a finger on it. Even his reasoning is still highly speculative at this point, however, and once they get into the actual situation on the ground it’s going to be even harder than anyone in the GA ever dreamed in their worst nightmares for them to convince the galaxy at large that he isn’t a raving lunatic.

I could tell you why that is, but then you wouldn’t have to buy the book!

(edited to clear up a few glitches)

runsforcelery wrote:
Oh, Bruno. I'm so sorry, but . . . .

[The book makes my ellipsis' significance clear. Until then, alas . . . . ]

I mean, if I were to go around making Everything Clear, whatever would Raoul and Kathrine do when they grow up?!!

Hahaha! This is the most fun forum discussion I remember. Ever.

And I will be taking you on your word and look forward to - whatever Raoul and Kathrine will end up doing

runsforcelery wrote:...They weren’t worried about the (nonexistent) Visigoth System-Defense Force because, it was, well . . . nonexistent. ...

Interesting. I'd assumed that since Visigoth was part of the Renaissance Factor, which collectively has one of the largest navies, they would have a significant SDF as their portion of the RFN/MAN.

I don't recall any texev that Visigoth's SDF is non-existent.

Weird Harold wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:...They weren’t worried about the (nonexistent) Visigoth System-Defense Force because, it was, well . . . nonexistent. ...

Interesting. I'd assumed that since Visigoth was part of the Renaissance Factor, which collectively has one of the largest navies, they would have a significant SDF as their portion of the RFN/MAN.

I don't recall any texev that Visigoth's SDF is non-existent.

I don't think that you should read "non-existant" too literary. They will have some LACs and maybe even a CL or so; if only to police and custom the Junction. But they've certainly nothing more. Or do they have a gentleman's agreement with the SLN (or, even better, the Beowulf SDF)?
Certainly not with the Mesan SDF - because Visigoth despises Genetic Slavery. Would be impossible to explain a cooperation with Galactic Evil, Inc to anyone with more than one functional braincell.

Weird Harold wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:...They weren’t worried about the (nonexistent) Visigoth System-Defense Force because, it was, well . . . nonexistent. ...

Interesting. I'd assumed that since Visigoth was part of the Renaissance Factor, which collectively has one of the largest navies, they would have a significant SDF as their portion of the RFN/MAN.

I don't recall any texev that Visigoth's SDF is non-existent.

I hope you are not forgetting Admiral Chang. You know, the BF admiral that wanted to shut down the Sigma Draconis-Manticore wormhole for 17 hours to mass transit ~30 SDs to assist Adm. Filareta. With 10th fleet's massive superiority sending ships through the wormhole would eventually be suicide. Send a detachment of Rolands and LACs to beat back the ones that can arrive and pick off the others. Or send your BCs to take on the mass transit.

CmdrAthenaAprilist wrote:Hi! New here, though been lurking for awhile! This remeinds me of something that crossed my mind when reading SoV; will anyone in the GA make the connection of Gamma Center being blown by a self-destruct charge by a high-ranking member of the MAlign (which Anton and Victor certainly know!) and the detonations witnessed at the end of SoV? Seems like it might resonate, especially since the Terrible Twosome are on Mesa when the latter happen!

Apologies, as someone else usually posts to newbies, kick back and help yourself to your favorite virtual adult beverage, on me. And accept my apologies, your post seems to have gotten buried in the vigorous discussion.

Problem is NOBODY except the delusional neobarbs from beyond the backside of nowhere [The Grand Alliance (GA)]believes this delusional creature exists. Which point has been stated and restated in this and other threads. Bringing it up yet again will not help. Indeed it will only serve to reinforce the perception that The GA is delusional. One would have to produce HARD evidence of the MAlign's existence. And wasn't the purpose of Final Flourish to destr .. no, to obliterate all such hard evidence?

runsforcelery wrote:...They weren’t worried about the (nonexistent) Visigoth System-Defense Force because, it was, well . . . nonexistent. ...

Weird Harold wrote::o Interesting. I'd assumed that since Visigoth was part of the Renaissance Factor, which collectively has one of the largest navies, they would have a significant SDF as their portion of the RFN/MAN.

I don't recall any texev that Visigoth's SDF is non-existent.

Eagleeye wrote:I don't think that you should read "non-existant" too literary. They will have some LACs and maybe even a CL or so; if only to police and custom the Junction. But they've certainly nothing more. Or do they have a gentleman's agreement with the SLN (or, even better, the Beowulf SDF)?

I think by "non-existent" RFC means no military space force. The existence of a police and/or customs force is probable, but that's nowhere close to a "System Defense Force" or part of one of the biggest space navies, even if nobody knows about it -- the Renaissance Factor/Mesa Alignment Navy. Visigoth is part of the Renaissance Factor.

I doubt that the SLN has a detachment/task force dedicated to protecting Visigoth's Wormhole. There might be a Fort or three guarding the Visigoth Junction but more for traffic control and/or customs.