Draining Clyntahn's mind

DrakBibliophile wrote:Torture works when the victim knows that the pain will end if he tells the truth.

Torture never works.

Yes, Clyntahn would know that he was a "dead man" no matter what he said, but there's a difference between a "quick death" and a "long and painful death".

And what are the chances Clyntahn will find himself the necessary fanaticism to overpower his desire to be painless?

The thing is, I don't believe physical torture would work on him. It wouldn't break him the way Nimue's and Merlin's revelations on the eve of his execution did.

And yes, above everything else, torture is not something you can do and still hold yourself as the good guys.

"Torture never works" ignores the time and places where it does work.

It works especially well when the torturers know when the victim is not telling the truth.

Now would it work on Clyntahn is another question.

There is no question about the moral problems of torture but there are times that it is necessary.

Claiming that "torture never works" ignores the moral question of "what do you do when if you don't torture the info out, innocent people will die".

The E wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Torture works when the victim knows that the pain will end if he tells the truth.

Torture never works.

Yes, Clyntahn would know that he was a "dead man" no matter what he said, but there's a difference between a "quick death" and a "long and painful death".

And what are the chances Clyntahn will find himself the necessary fanaticism to overpower his desire to be painless?

The thing is, I don't believe physical torture would work on him. It wouldn't break him the way Nimue's and Merlin's revelations on the eve of his execution did.

And yes, above everything else, torture is not something you can do and still hold yourself as the good guys.

DrakBibliophile wrote:"Torture never works" ignores the time and places where it does work.

It works especially well when the torturers know when the victim is not telling the truth.

Now would it work on Clyntahn is another question.

There is no question about the moral problems of torture but there are times that it is necessary.

Claiming that "torture never works" ignores the moral question of "what do you do when if you don't torture the info out, innocent people will die".

The argument for torture is often a classic case of prioritising the tactical over the strategic. Leaving aside the moral question, torture can be a short-term, tactical gain. Which is why soldiers are trained to resist torture.

Long-term, a situation where one side is using torture and the other isn't, or a situation where one side claims the moral high ground but is then shown to use torture as a policy is a situation where torture is a strategic disaster. The innocent lives saved by the various tactical decisions are likely to be lost - because a) the tortured and their relatives have just been turned into bitter enemies and b) the moral high ground has been lost, meaning the general population has just lost a reason to support/fight for your side.

In Safehodian terms, torturing Clyntahn might have provided a tactical advantage- the Inner Circle would've possibly discovered what the Thing Under The Basement was. But if it had ever come out that they'd tortured Clyntahn, they would've made a huge strategic loss as moderate Reformers everywhere looked at the new, Reformed Mother Church, with its new, reformed safeguards against torture and the Punishment - and compared it with the Church of Charis, now revealed to have been lying about using torture.

Remember, Nimue, Merlin and the Inner Circle have a long term goal; destroy Mother Church. There's no point finding out the identity of the Thing if they've just encouraged three- quarters of Safehold to support the Thing in its defence of Mother Church.

If Nimue and Merlin had been revealed as physically torturing Clyntahn, rather than simply convincing him that the Church and its religion was fake, the people who wondered whether the seijins are demons would've received a massive boost. Given how much the 'seijins' are used by Charis, that's a very large strategic set back. It also means that inducting more people into the Inner Circle becomes more difficult, as the evidence for the demonic nature of Merlin and Nimue is stronger - making it more likely that the truth will be seen as more machinations of Shan-Wei.

Bluesqueak wrote:The argument for torture is often a classic case of prioritising the tactical over the strategic. Leaving aside the moral question, torture can be a short-term, tactical gain. Which is why soldiers are trained to resist torture.

Long-term, a situation where one side is using torture and the other isn't, or a situation where one side claims the moral high ground but is then shown to use torture as a policy is a situation where torture is a strategic disaster. The innocent lives saved by the various tactical decisions are likely to be lost - because a) the tortured and their relatives have just been turned into bitter enemies and b) the moral high ground has been lost, meaning the general population has just lost a reason to support/fight for your side.

In Safehodian terms, torturing Clyntahn might have provided a tactical advantage- the Inner Circle would've possibly discovered what the Thing Under The Basement was. But if it had ever come out that they'd tortured Clyntahn, they would've made a huge strategic loss as moderate Reformers everywhere looked at the new, Reformed Mother Church, with its new, reformed safeguards against torture and the Punishment - and compared it with the Church of Charis, now revealed to have been lying about using torture.

Remember, Nimue, Merlin and the Inner Circle have a long term goal; destroy Mother Church. There's no point finding out the identity of the Thing if they've just encouraged three- quarters of Safehold to support the Thing in its defence of Mother Church.

If Nimue and Merlin had been revealed as physically torturing Clyntahn, rather than simply convincing him that the Church and its religion was fake, the people who wondered whether the seijins are demons would've received a massive boost. Given how much the 'seijins' are used by Charis, that's a very large strategic set back. It also means that inducting more people into the Inner Circle becomes more difficult, as the evidence for the demonic nature of Merlin and Nimue is stronger - making it more likely that the truth will be seen as more machinations of Shan-Wei.

I would also add that torture is the most direct argument possible that whoever is being tortured doesn't deserve the fundamental respect and dignity owed to all fellow people. They are and must be viewed as "the other". The CoGA followed this logic and consigned so many safeholdians to the hordes of Shan-wei worshippers. Safehold can't afford to continue segregating folks in that way. By eliminating torture, no matter how effective it may be, the Good Guys (TM) assert in everything they do that we are all people even if we disagree. Recovering from powerful disagreements is easier when neither side is vilified and made inhuman.

The danger of having his mind in OWL is that even with his accesses limited, he would be "PLAYING THE GAME" still. He would know that he is still needed and would block attempts to get the info needed to deconstruct the church Langhon built. If not, he would go insane in no time seeing how fast things go in the computing realm. remember how fast Norman got OWL to be a better AI. Having Clyntahn as a program is like inviting a virus. I am glad they never tried it on him

The E wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Torture works when the victim knows that the pain will end if he tells the truth.

Torture never works.

Yes, Clyntahn would know that he was a "dead man" no matter what he said, but there's a difference between a "quick death" and a "long and painful death".

And what are the chances Clyntahn will find himself the necessary fanaticism to overpower his desire to be painless?

The thing is, I don't believe physical torture would work on him. It wouldn't break him the way Nimue's and Merlin's revelations on the eve of his execution did.

And yes, above everything else, torture is not something you can do and still hold yourself as the good guys.

But torture is simply not necessary, and puts the original discussion off on a rabbit trail that leads no where.

We have drugs in our day and age that make a mind pliable to answering questions, and it would be easy for OWL to replicate them. Combine that with the ability to discern truth from falsity and the experience for Cly would be no worse than falling asleep and waking up refreshed. (or maybe with a headache.)

I Know that RFC believes that torture works, although he acknowledges the moral issues with doing it. He is contradicted by others who say that it is unreliable and actually counter-productive since you end up with less useful info than if you had tried another way.

So... go figure.

Don

-

n7axw wrote:I Know that RFC believes that torture works, although he acknowledges the moral issues with doing it. He is contradicted by others who say that it is unreliable and actually counter-productive since you end up with less useful info than if you had tried another way.

So... go figure.

Don

-

The textev is that RFC believes that torture 'works', in the sense that it can gain useful information. He's right; it can. However, the textev appears to hint that he also believes that someone being tortured can become a classic case of confirmation bias. They'll tell you anything you want to stop the torture - and if what you want is evidence of a world wide conspiracy, that's what you'll get. Might not be true, but you'll get it.

Applying this to Clyntahn, the danger is that he would, to stop the pain, tell the Inner Circle all sbout the Thing In The Basement - even if he hasn't actually got a clue and is just making up some plausible rubbish, based on his knowledge of secret Inquisition files. Just as the Inquisition always found themselves uncovering conspiracies that didn't exist.

But I still stand by my earlier comment. Torture works in a short term, tactical sense. From a strategic point of view, it's frequently a disaster.

Bluesqueak wrote:

n7axw wrote:I Know that RFC believes that torture works, although he acknowledges the moral issues with doing it. He is contradicted by others who say that it is unreliable and actually counter-productive since you end up with less useful info than if you had tried another way.

So... go figure.

Don

-

The textev is that RFC believes that torture 'works', in the sense that it can gain useful information. He's right; it can. However, the textev appears to hint that he also believes that someone being tortured can become a classic case of confirmation bias. They'll tell you anything you want to stop the torture - and if what you want is evidence of a world wide conspiracy, that's what you'll get. Might not be true, but you'll get it.

Applying this to Clyntahn, the danger is that he would, to stop the pain, tell the Inner Circle all sbout the Thing In The Basement - even if he hasn't actually got a clue and is just making up some plausible rubbish, based on his knowledge of secret Inquisition files. Just as the Inquisition always found themselves uncovering conspiracies that didn't exist.

But I still stand by my earlier comment. Torture works in a short term, tactical sense. From a strategic point of view, it's frequently a disaster.

Yup. In the context of the story, someone is asked questions under a verifier and is only tortured if he refrains from answering or lies. If the victim honestly answers the questions, he is never tortured. If he lies or refuses to answer, he is tortured. That will work, but will not be viewed well by those under that treat. It won't be viewed well by anyone who finds out about it.

As posted earlier, torture is the implicit assertion that the victim of torture is not worthy of human dignity. Casting the victim's God given dignity aside is acceptable. So, torturers must assert either some people are indeed subhuman or no human deserves that God given dignity. Anything else is either saying people's individual God given liberties are not as important as the needs of the state or that the state's agents know torture is immoral but will do it anyway.

None of those views is comforting to everyday citizens.

Bluesqueak wrote:Applying this to Clyntahn, the danger is that he would, to stop the pain, tell the Inner Circle all sbout the Thing In The Basement - even if he hasn't actually got a clue and is just making up some plausible rubbish, based on his knowledge of secret Inquisition files. Just as the Inquisition always found themselves uncovering conspiracies that didn't exist.

But I still stand by my earlier comment. Torture works in a short term, tactical sense. From a strategic point of view, it's frequently a disaster.

They have the verifier. The big problem with torture is knowing when you got the truth (including "I don't know the answer".) They don't have that problem.