Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?

I don't know about all this "Evidence Bit". It seems like several people in this thread think that if Manticore can prove that the Mesan Alignment were behind everything (especialy Case Houdini) then peace will erupt and everyone will be vomiting kittens or something.

I think we are way past that point. I mean sure the MA got the ball rolling, but for the most part it was just bad decisions on the Solarian League to escalate things to the point of open war. Millions of Solarian Naval Personal are dead to Manticorian fire, and the Solarian economy is starting to get HAMMERED. The Harrington Doctrine in many ways acknowledges the fact that it doesn't matter anymore that Mesa manipulated the situation, the League has become a hostile enough enemy that it can't be allowed to continue. On the flip side the average core world-er Solly is so furious at Manticore that even without the nukes going off on Mesa, they just don't care anymore, they want Manticore gone. Sure Mike nuking Mesa is another log on the fire, but honestly I doubt its the biggest log at this point, or the most important.

And when Case Buccaneer hits its stride the Grand Alliance is going to be switching from, we don't want to fight the Sollies cause its MA's fault to, yea the MA needs to be dealt with but so do the Sollies.

The MA got the ball rolling sure, but the League and the Alliance have moved on to grievances of each others actions. Everything from liberating OFS administered worlds, to Case Lacoon, the League literally can't back down anymore and remain intact.

I want to know what that OTHER SLN fleet, the one Fillerta mentions, that was being staged for going to Manticore.

Seems to me that, like the information about Fillerta, something about that should have worked its way through the pipeline to at least Beowulf if not been extracted from ships files in Filerta's fleet. Shouldn't Manticore and Haven be at least investigating that?

Direwolf18 wrote:I don't know about all this "Evidence Bit". It seems like several people in this thread think that if Manticore can prove that the Mesan Alignment were behind everything (especialy Case Houdini) then peace will erupt and everyone will be vomiting kittens or something.

I think not so much unreserved expectation that peace will break out so much as "here is evidence you were manipulated throughthe greed and penury of your Admirals into a shooting war with us. Here is the fig leaf you need. Please use it before we send The Salamander to Earth for a tete-a-tete with Kingsford.

I think we are way past that point. I mean sure the MA got the ball rolling, but for the most part it was just bad decisions on the Solarian League to escalate things to the point of open war. Millions of Solarian Naval Personal are dead to Manticorian fire, and the Solarian economy is starting to get HAMMERED. The Harrington Doctrine in many ways acknowledges the fact that it doesn't matter anymore that Mesa manipulated the situation, the League has become a hostile enough enemy that it can't be allowed to continue. On the flip side the average core world-er Solly is so furious at Manticore that even without the nukes going off on Mesa, they just don't care anymore, they want Manticore gone. Sure Mike nuking Mesa is another log on the fire, but honestly I doubt its the biggest log at this point, or the most important.

And when Case Buccaneer hits its stride the Grand Alliance is going to be switching from, we don't want to fight the Sollies cause its MA's fault to, yea the MA needs to be dealt with but so do the Sollies.

The MA got the ball rolling sure, but the League and the Alliance have moved on to grievances of each others actions. Everything from liberating OFS administered worlds, to Case Lacoon, the League literally can't back down anymore and remain intact.

Yes the GA is faced with the same problem Manticore faced after First BoM. How to conclude peace without having to constantly have to worry about future revanchism when the SL or its surviving entity/entities balance the tech equation and come ofer the hyper limit looking for blood.

Clearly stated in MoH. Of course the League has to be dealt with its still the 600# gorilla, after all. And it is the only target they have.

Brigade XO wrote:I want to know what that OTHER SLN fleet, the one Fillerta mentions, that was being staged for going to Manticore.

Seems to me that, like the information about Fillerta, something about that should have worked its way through the pipeline to at least Beowulf if not been extracted from ships files in Filerta's fleet. Shouldn't Manticore and Haven be at least investigating that?

It was Rajani that said that, not Filerta, and at this point 600-700 wallers should still be in motion to Tasmania. Kingsford seems to believe that an additional assault would be worthless, but we never saw him recalling them - even If he did, they are off the scope until mid-winter 1923, and will probably require a severe refit when they return.

It still boogles my mind that in a navy that never deploys, no one noticed that over 1/2 the active Battle Fleet was being moved around the board, without anyone's knowledge as to why they were moving.

Direwolf18 wrote:I don't know about all this "Evidence Bit". It seems like several people in this thread think that if Manticore can prove that the Mesan Alignment were behind everything (especialy Case Houdini) then peace will erupt and everyone will be vomiting kittens or something.

I think we are way past that point. I mean sure the MA got the ball rolling, but for the most part it was just bad decisions on the Solarian League to escalate things to the point of open war. Millions of Solarian Naval Personal are dead to Manticorian fire, and the Solarian economy is starting to get HAMMERED. The Harrington Doctrine in many ways acknowledges the fact that it doesn't matter anymore that Mesa manipulated the situation, the League has become a hostile enough enemy that it can't be allowed to continue. On the flip side the average core world-er Solly is so furious at Manticore that even without the nukes going off on Mesa, they just don't care anymore, they want Manticore gone. Sure Mike nuking Mesa is another log on the fire, but honestly I doubt its the biggest log at this point, or the most important.

And when Case Buccaneer hits its stride the Grand Alliance is going to be switching from, we don't want to fight the Sollies cause its MA's fault to, yea the MA needs to be dealt with but so do the Sollies.

The MA got the ball rolling sure, but the League and the Alliance have moved on to grievances of each others actions. Everything from liberating OFS administered worlds, to Case Lacoon, the League literally can't back down anymore and remain intact.

I'm not holding my breath on the League staying intact. Remember, Honor stated the solution to their quandary in an earlier book: break the League. With Maya looking to set off on its own and Beowulf so tightly locked in with the GA, we already have a few major fault lines. One good hard swing of the hammer could shatter the whole thing - though I have no idea how long that shattering will take. The League is, after all, huge.

roseandheather wrote:I'm not holding my breath on the League staying intact. Remember, Honor stated the solution to their quandary in an earlier book: break the League. With Maya looking to set off on its own and Beowulf so tightly locked in with the GA, we already have a few major fault lines. One good hard swing of the hammer could shatter the whole thing - though I have no idea how long that shattering will take. The League is, after all, huge.

I agree. At this point, Manticore (and their allies) have to take the League apart for their own survival -- it's so much bigger and richer than they are that if they don't fracture the League into (at most) Haven-sized pieces, in thirty or fifty years the League will have duplicated Manticoran technology and outbuilt them to the point where rolling over the Grand Alliance will be relatively straightforward.

The fracture process is already starting with Beowulf, but the GA can't let it stop there; they have to not just peel away the Verge and the Shell (though that will really help them in the short term by crippling the League's cash flow) but get the Core itself to fracture...

...and without getting the Core so riled up at Manticore that revanchism sets in. Not an easy task.

(And, a few generations down the line, the power politics of the Solarian League's successor states are going to be ... very interesting, and probably with a lot of wars.)

tonyz wrote:I agree. At this point, Manticore (and their allies) have to take the League apart for their own survival -- it's so much bigger and richer than they are that if they don't fracture the League into (at most) Haven-sized pieces, in thirty or fifty years the League will have duplicated Manticoran technology and outbuilt them to the point where rolling over the Grand Alliance will be relatively straightforward.

The fracture process is already starting with Beowulf, but the GA can't let it stop there; they have to not just peel away the Verge and the Shell (though that will really help them in the short term by crippling the League's cash flow) but get the Core itself to fracture...

...and without getting the Core so riled up at Manticore that revanchism sets in. Not an easy task.

(And, a few generations down the line, the power politics of the Solarian League's successor states are going to be ... very interesting, and probably with a lot of wars.)

Not to mention the MAlign want to break up the League from their point of view as well.

Direwolf18 wrote:I don't know about all this "Evidence Bit". It seems like several people in this thread think that if Manticore can prove that the Mesan Alignment were behind everything (especialy Case Houdini) then peace will erupt and everyone will be vomiting kittens or something.

I think we are way past that point. I mean sure the MA got the ball rolling, but for the most part it was just bad decisions on the Solarian League to escalate things to the point of open war. Millions of Solarian Naval Personal are dead to Manticorian fire, and the Solarian economy is starting to get HAMMERED. The Harrington Doctrine in many ways acknowledges the fact that it doesn't matter anymore that Mesa manipulated the situation, the League has become a hostile enough enemy that it can't be allowed to continue. On the flip side the average core world-er Solly is so furious at Manticore that even without the nukes going off on Mesa, they just don't care anymore, they want Manticore gone. Sure Mike nuking Mesa is another log on the fire, but honestly I doubt its the biggest log at this point, or the most important.

And when Case Buccaneer hits its stride the Grand Alliance is going to be switching from, we don't want to fight the Sollies cause its MA's fault to, yea the MA needs to be dealt with but so do the Sollies.

The MA got the ball rolling sure, but the League and the Alliance have moved on to grievances of each others actions. Everything from liberating OFS administered worlds, to Case Lacoon, the League literally can't back down anymore and remain intact.

I'm not sure that the average Core Worlder is furious with Manticore. Lots of Terrans certainly are upset with Manticore. But there are 1800 core worlds all spread out, most of whom are so far from the action that the League is more of an abstraction than anything else. I suspect that most of them won't be paying attention until the consequences starts spilling over on their own business and trade. And a substantial number of them will be more interested in righting their own ships and getting back to business as usual than with securing the League. All Manticore has to do is make it clear that security for business as usual lies with the GA, not the League.

Actually the only Core Worlds we have heard from are Terra and Beowulf.

Don

-

roseandheather wrote:I'm not holding my breath on the League staying intact. Remember, Honor stated the solution to their quandary in an earlier book: break the League. With Maya looking to set off on its own and Beowulf so tightly locked in with the GA, we already have a few major fault lines. One good hard swing of the hammer could shatter the whole thing - though I have no idea how long that shattering will take. The League is, after all, huge.

If you want a recent example think how monolithic the Soviet Union seemed yet how quickly that collapsed & split into smaller nations with the rump of Russia forming one major sized country; (although considerably smaller than before). For someone who grew up during the Cold War it seemed breathtakingly fast.

I am not disagreeing with you, you understand. I am just pointing out how quickly things could unravel once the wheels come off.

Rincewind wrote:

roseandheather wrote:I'm not holding my breath on the League staying intact. Remember, Honor stated the solution to their quandary in an earlier book: break the League. With Maya looking to set off on its own and Beowulf so tightly locked in with the GA, we already have a few major fault lines. One good hard swing of the hammer could shatter the whole thing - though I have no idea how long that shattering will take. The League is, after all, huge.

If you want a recent example think how monolithic the Soviet Union seemed yet how quickly that collapsed & split into smaller nations with the rump of Russia forming one major sized country; (although considerably smaller than before). For someone who grew up during the Cold War it seemed breathtakingly fast.

I am not disagreeing with you, you understand. I am just pointing out how quickly things could unravel once the wheels come off.

That's a very good point (and one I didn't think of, probably because I was all of a year old when the USSR collapsed). If it does go down like a chain of dominoes, though, I can only wonder how bloody the aftermath will be. I have to wonder if it'll be more Arab Spring than Velvet Revolution....