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Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?

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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:29 pm

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PeterZ wrote:
Sorry to disagree, but Thandi was caught up in the tower as Houdini began. Began long before Mike showed up. I recall children's soccer fields blown up during games. Buildings with supposed conferences blown up and blamed on Seccies and the Ballroom. Whatever or whoever was doing this evaded the authorities and managed to plant bombs repeatedly all over Mesa. They had agents planting those bombs after the authorities were looking for them. Yet, when their supposed leaders were cornered by those authorities, those agents which had successfully evaded capture could not plan bombs to relieve their leadership.

That's what I was referencing. O'Hanrahan knew this to be true because she was there.

So, now that Mike arrives, more bombs go off. It strikes me as illogical that a different culprit MUST be at fault for these bombs than the bombs leading up to Mike's arrival. So, if the Ballroom was at fault for the initial bombings, they are at fault now. If they were at fault for the initial bombings why did they not also bomb the forces attacking Palane? If the Ballroom was neutralized by Mesan authorities prior to Mike's arrival, why did they not reveal that fact to O'Hanrahan and other Newsies? The most believable reason is that those agents were not apprehended. If they were not apprehended, then why did not help Thandi?

Taking the bombings that happened before Mike arrives as a completely separate series of events doesn't make sense. Taking all the bombings as part of a single series of events to further a group's goal is the best explanation for them. There are too many inconsistencies to make the culprit demonstrably the Manties.

Yes, I believe that blaming the Manties is believable. I also think that immediately blaming the most recent bombings on Mike despite the ongoing bombings prior to Mike's arrival is a leap to judgement that is inconsistent with O'Hanrahan's modus operandi. Is it too large a disconnect for me to believe, no. It is, however, evidence that I believe should be questioned by Mike's intel weenies.

When Oyster Bay is considered in the context of the Manty claims for these atrocities, I can see opinion going both ways. The bastards responsible for the Yawata Strike earned severe punishment and deserved what Mike did to them or any organization cold blooded enough to kill millions of Manties to harm them would also kill more millions of people to further harm the Manties on Mesa.

So, an immediate opinion formed by a true muckraker would sound odd to me in this context.


The entire siege of Neue Rostock lasted about three weeks — less than a month — before Mike arrived to relieve them. Now, three weeks is a hell of a long time for a bunch of insurgents to hold out against the organized military forces of a planet even fighting from a “natural fortress” like one of the seccy towers. Despite that, though, it’s only three weeks, and the official position of the Mesa security forces is that the terrorists responsible for the nuclear bombing campaign are now all penned up inside Neue Rostock. That’s the reason there aren’t being more explosions elsewhere. Besides, how many nukes did they have? Remember that the only ones which were captured — after being deliberately designed as squibs — were jury rigged out of Mesan “commercial” nuclear materials. There was zero evidence that the explosives used had been smuggled in from off-planet. One can therefore legitimately assume that the bad guys (whoever they are) have only a limited supply of them. Couple that with the fact that the supposed perpetrators are now under siege and unable to get out to continue their bloodthirsty campaign, and it’s not that surprising that there weren’t scads of nuclear explosions going off all over Mesa.

In fact, the sheer quantity of explosions which occur after Tenth Fleet’s arrival and the precision of their timing is the strongest possible evidence that it wasn’t the same people as the sloppy jerks who managed to plant at least two nukes that didn’t even go off prior to Mike Henke’s conquest of the star system.

I’m sorry, but the difference between the sporadic, scattered attacks that were part of ongoing Operation Houdini operations are obviously totally different from the cascade of explosions which completed Houdini. O’Hanrahan never really believed that the nuclear attacks all over the planet were Manticore’s handiwork to begin with. She made that abundantly clear in her coverage from Mesa. She didn’t suggest that they were the work of the Mesan government, either, of course . . . and they weren’t. She didn’t know who’d carried them out, and that’s what she said.

But when you have something like 40-plus nuclear detonations, spread through an entire star system — including orbital structures, not on the planetary surface where all of the other “terrorist” attacks occurred — and all of them occurring simultaneously, not spread out and sequenced the way the “terrorist” attacks were, you are clearly talking about a far more sophisticated operation. And the only people reasonably in place to carryout that operation are the Manties and their Havenite allies.

It is totally reasonable for O’Hanrahan — and a whole stack of other newsies — to follow exactly that chain of logic, and there would be absolutely no legitimate grounds for Mike Henke or anyone else to single Audrey O’Hanrahan out of all the other background noise for following a completely logical perspective on the story. And she didn’t exactly shift her theories overnight, either. It’s an ongoing process, and the last thing she said is that there are unanswered questions, that she is no longer certain of anything, and that she intends to follow the story wherever he goes.

Please point me at something suspicious in that.


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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:34 pm

quite possibly a cat
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runsforcelery wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
Sorry to disagree, but Thandi was caught up in the tower as Houdini began. Began long before Mike showed up. I recall children's soccer fields blown up during games. Buildings with supposed conferences blown up and blamed on Seccies and the Ballroom. Whatever or whoever was doing this evaded the authorities and managed to plant bombs repeatedly all over Mesa. They had agents planting those bombs after the authorities were looking for them. Yet, when their supposed leaders were cornered by those authorities, those agents which had successfully evaded capture could not plan bombs to relieve their leadership.

That's what I was referencing. O'Hanrahan knew this to be true because she was there.

So, now that Mike arrives, more bombs go off. It strikes me as illogical that a different culprit MUST be at fault for these bombs than the bombs leading up to Mike's arrival. So, if the Ballroom was at fault for the initial bombings, they are at fault now. If they were at fault for the initial bombings why did they not also bomb the forces attacking Palane? If the Ballroom was neutralized by Mesan authorities prior to Mike's arrival, why did they not reveal that fact to O'Hanrahan and other Newsies? The most believable reason is that those agents were not apprehended. If they were not apprehended, then why did not help Thandi?

Taking the bombings that happened before Mike arrives as a completely separate series of events doesn't make sense. Taking all the bombings as part of a single series of events to further a group's goal is the best explanation for them. There are too many inconsistencies to make the culprit demonstrably the Manties.

Yes, I believe that blaming the Manties is believable. I also think that immediately blaming the most recent bombings on Mike despite the ongoing bombings prior to Mike's arrival is a leap to judgement that is inconsistent with O'Hanrahan's modus operandi. Is it too large a disconnect for me to believe, no. It is, however, evidence that I believe should be questioned by Mike's intel weenies.

When Oyster Bay is considered in the context of the Manty claims for these atrocities, I can see opinion going both ways. The bastards responsible for the Yawata Strike earned severe punishment and deserved what Mike did to them or any organization cold blooded enough to kill millions of Manties to harm them would also kill more millions of people to further harm the Manties on Mesa.

So, an immediate opinion formed by a true muckraker would sound odd to me in this context.


The entire siege of Neue Rostock lasted about three weeks — less than a month — before Mike arrived to relieve them. Now, three weeks is a hell of a long time for a bunch of insurgents to hold out against the organized military forces of a planet even fighting from a “natural fortress” like one of the seccy towers. Despite that, though, it’s only three weeks, and the official position of the Mesa security forces is that the terrorists responsible for the nuclear bombing campaign are now all penned up inside Neue Rostock. That’s the reason there aren’t being more explosions elsewhere. Besides, how many nukes did they have? Remember that the only ones which were captured — after being deliberately designed as squibs — were jury rigged out of Mesan “commercial” nuclear materials. There was zero evidence that the explosives used had been smuggled in from off-planet. One can therefore legitimately assume that the bad guys (whoever they are) have only a limited supply of them. Couple that with the fact that the supposed perpetrators are now under siege and unable to get out to continue their bloodthirsty campaign, and it’s not that surprising that there weren’t scads of nuclear explosions going off all over Mesa.

In fact, the sheer quantity of explosions which occur after Tenth Fleet’s arrival and the precision of their timing is the strongest possible evidence that it wasn’t the same people as the sloppy jerks who managed to plant at least two nukes that didn’t even go off prior to Mike Henke’s conquest of the star system.
Hmm... I hadn't really considered that. Still not very helpful for Manticore though!
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Joat42   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:53 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:..snip..
But when you have something like 40-plus nuclear detonations, spread through an entire star system — including orbital structures, not on the planetary surface where all of the other “terrorist” attacks occurred — and all of them occurring simultaneously, not spread out and sequenced the way the “terrorist” attacks were, you are clearly talking about a far more sophisticated operation. And the only people reasonably in place to carryout that operation are the Manties and their Havenite allies.

..snip..

Please point me at something suspicious in that.

If there is a clear timeline for the explosions which can be attributed to a signal and its transmission lag from a central point there may something to hang other theories on. But we still end up with the dilemma that Henke's taskforce owned the skies and had control of sensors and other systems.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:57 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:The entire siege of Neue Rostock lasted about three weeks — less than a month — before Mike arrived to relieve them. Now, three weeks is a hell of a long time for a bunch of insurgents to hold out against the organized military forces of a planet even fighting from a “natural fortress” like one of the seccy towers. Despite that, though, it’s only three weeks, and the official position of the Mesa security forces is that the terrorists responsible for the nuclear bombing campaign are now all penned up inside Neue Rostock. That’s the reason there aren’t being more explosions elsewhere. Besides, how many nukes did they have? Remember that the only ones which were captured — after being deliberately designed as squibs — were jury rigged out of Mesan “commercial” nuclear materials. There was zero evidence that the explosives used had been smuggled in from off-planet. One can therefore legitimately assume that the bad guys (whoever they are) have only a limited supply of them. Couple that with the fact that the supposed perpetrators are now under siege and unable to get out to continue their bloodthirsty campaign, and it’s not that surprising that there weren’t scads of nuclear explosions going off all over Mesa.

In fact, the sheer quantity of explosions which occur after Tenth Fleet’s arrival and the precision of their timing is the strongest possible evidence that it wasn’t the same people as the sloppy jerks who managed to plant at least two nukes that didn’t even go off prior to Mike Henke’s conquest of the star system.

I’m sorry, but the difference between the sporadic, scattered attacks that were part of ongoing Operation Houdini operations are obviously totally different from the cascade of explosions which completed Houdini. O’Hanrahan never really believed that the nuclear attacks all over the planet were Manticore’s handiwork to begin with. She made that abundantly clear in her coverage from Mesa. She didn’t suggest that they were the work of the Mesan government, either, of course . . . and they weren’t. She didn’t know who’d carried them out, and that’s what she said.

But when you have something like 40-plus nuclear detonations, spread through an entire star system — including orbital structures, not on the planetary surface where all of the other “terrorist” attacks occurred — and all of them occurring simultaneously, not spread out and sequenced the way the “terrorist” attacks were, you are clearly talking about a far more sophisticated operation. And the only people reasonably in place to carryout that operation are the Manties and their Havenite allies.

It is totally reasonable for O’Hanrahan — and a whole stack of other newsies — to follow exactly that chain of logic, and there would be absolutely no legitimate grounds for Mike Henke or anyone else to single Audrey O’Hanrahan out of all the other background noise for following a completely logical perspective on the story. And she didn’t exactly shift her theories overnight, either. It’s an ongoing process, and the last thing she said is that there are unanswered questions, that she is no longer certain of anything, and that she intends to follow the story wherever he goes.

Please point me at something suspicious in that.


The temporal fugue of your recent books has me focusing on certain elements out of sequence or forgetting certain details. The nature of those initial nukes did not really register at that time I read that section of the story.

Clarifying the circumstances as you just did, I will concur that your narrative is the most likely sequence of events. Even if the MAlign is acknowledged to be responsible for the Yawata Strike, it would just bolster the motivation for the Manties to nuke Mesa.

Very nicely done!
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:25 pm

runsforcelery
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PeterZ wrote:
The temporal fugue of your recent books has me focusing on certain elements out of sequence or forgetting certain details. The nature of those initial nukes did not really register at that time I read that section of the story.





Oh, that;'s right! Call in sick and blame it on a bad case of the fugue! :roll: :lol:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Lunan   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:53 pm

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Something similar happened to me with the last 3 safehold books. Just had difficulties keeping the story straight

runsforcelery wrote:
PeterZ wrote:
The temporal fugue of your recent books has me focusing on certain elements out of sequence or forgetting certain details. The nature of those initial nukes did not really register at that time I read that section of the story.





Oh, that;'s right! Call in sick and blame it on a bad case of the fugue! :roll: :lol:
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by Castenea   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:44 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:I’m sorry, but the difference between the sporadic, scattered attacks that were part of ongoing Operation Houdini operations are obviously totally different from the cascade of explosions which completed Houdini. O’Hanrahan never really believed that the nuclear attacks all over the planet were Manticore’s handiwork to begin with. She made that abundantly clear in her coverage from Mesa. She didn’t suggest that they were the work of the Mesan government, either, of course . . . and they weren’t. She didn’t know who’d carried them out, and that’s what she said.

But when you have something like 40-plus nuclear detonations, spread through an entire star system — including orbital structures, not on the planetary surface where all of the other “terrorist” attacks occurred — and all of them occurring simultaneously, not spread out and sequenced the way the “terrorist” attacks were, you are clearly talking about a far more sophisticated operation. And the only people reasonably in place to carryout that operation are the Manties and their Havenite allies.

I will just ask how is the onion going to besmirch the credibility of the Mesan officers who will be able to truthfully say, I was on the bridge/CIC and I never saw any missile traces?
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:17 pm

quite possibly a cat
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Castenea wrote:I will just ask how is the onion going to besmirch the credibility of the Mesan officers who will be able to truthfully say, I was on the bridge/CIC and I never saw any missile traces?
Well there are two possibilities: one is Manticore keeps the officers prisoner. In that case, it should be obvious they fear retribution if they say anything bad about Manticore. In fact, Manticore keeping them from speaking freely would be taken as evidence Manticore fears the truth.

Of course, Manticore could let the officers go and let them speak freely without fear of retribution. Say let some of them travel to Old Chicago to give testimony. If Manticore does that I suspect that the Mesan officers will LIE. Even if they tell the truth Manticore just had their infrastructure shot to hell by some weapon that didn't include missile traces, so that still accomplishes nothing.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:17 pm

runsforcelery
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Castenea wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:I’m sorry, but the difference between the sporadic, scattered attacks that were part of ongoing Operation Houdini operations are obviously totally different from the cascade of explosions which completed Houdini. O’Hanrahan never really believed that the nuclear attacks all over the planet were Manticore’s handiwork to begin with. She made that abundantly clear in her coverage from Mesa. She didn’t suggest that they were the work of the Mesan government, either, of course . . . and they weren’t. She didn’t know who’d carried them out, and that’s what she said.

But when you have something like 40-plus nuclear detonations, spread through an entire star system — including orbital structures, not on the planetary surface where all of the other “terrorist” attacks occurred — and all of them occurring simultaneously, not spread out and sequenced the way the “terrorist” attacks were, you are clearly talking about a far more sophisticated operation. And the only people reasonably in place to carryout that operation are the Manties and their Havenite allies.

I will just ask how is the onion going to besmirch the credibility of the Mesan officers who will be able to truthfully say, I was on the bridge/CIC and I never saw any missile traces?



Or, having surrendered their ships and been evacuated to the surface of the planet, they aren't on the bridge/CIC in question?

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that no one's suggested the most telling evidence of all that they weren't delivered from Tenth Fleet. :P

Don't expect me to tell you what it is, of course! :twisted:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?
Post by runsforcelery   » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:18 pm

runsforcelery
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Joat42 wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:..snip..
But when you have something like 40-plus nuclear detonations, spread through an entire star system — including orbital structures, not on the planetary surface where all of the other “terrorist” attacks occurred — and all of them occurring simultaneously, not spread out and sequenced the way the “terrorist” attacks were, you are clearly talking about a far more sophisticated operation. And the only people reasonably in place to carryout that operation are the Manties and their Havenite allies.

..snip..

Please point me at something suspicious in that.

If there is a clear timeline for the explosions which can be attributed to a signal and its transmission lag from a central point there may something to hang other theories on. But we still end up with the dilemma that Henke's taskforce owned the skies and had control of sensors and other systems.



There is a clear timeline . . . at it doesn't help Tenth Fleet at all. :twisted:


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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