Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?

runsforcelery wrote:

George J. Smith wrote:Surely the Mesan ships that were dropping KEWs on the residential towers would have independent records that would prove there were no missiles traces from Mike's fleet?

Uh-huh. And who has possession of all those ships after their surrender and so --- purely coincidentally, of course --- finds herself in the perfect position to doctor/eliminate/erase or otherwise . . . modify said records before "discovering" them and providing them to the galaxy as proof positive of her innocence? Someone named "Henke," I believe.

If you're willing to entertain the notion that a Manticoran fleet carried out a deliberate Eridani Edict violation, then you're certainly willing to question any evidence proving their innocence that comes from a Manticoran cntrolled source. And there is no way in the universe that Mike can argue that she didn't have control of every sensor platform in the system by the time the nukes went off.

Even if she actually didn't.

If O'Hanrahan reports events like that, Mike will know where to start looking for the real culprits. O'Hanrahan would know the nukes went off soon after Mike's arrival, but also that the Mesan authorities were out in force trying to stop the ongoing bombings. She would know General Palane was trapped in that Seccie tower defending the inhabitants. If General Palane was part of a Manty plot capable of successfully bombing location after location all over Mesa to include an island in the middle of nowhere, why haven't they planted bombs in the midst of the forces killing them? No, a good reported would ask those sorts of questions and not asking them is a sign she is anything but a good reporter. That would stink to high heaven!

As it is Mike already knows some group believes nuking a planet is a good idea. She just needs a place to start looking and a deliberately disingenuous reporter with a sterling reputation for honesty and integrity would smell enough to draw her attention. Between that and the investigation in the League and there will be key players in the next story arc with incentives to keep on looking for the MAlign. Heck, those players may well be convinced there is a secret group pulling the strings of this disastrous nightmare.
Edit: spelling

A couple of things.

(1) A request for information – does the Honorverse tech base include junction-capable drones?

(2) I can't remember the details, but in one of the more recent books there is mention of an exploratory expedition that went down one of the termini in the Felix junction, and never came back. Isn't it about time somebody started asking some questions about that? Especially if the answer to (1) above is "Yes".

(3) The "Hanrahan Interview" question: You might not need a 'cat in the room if HH is present. Hanrahan has such a reputation as a straight arrow that the slightest hint of something not quite kosher could cause questions to be asked, and HH might well be a good enough empath to pick that up.
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Peter2 wrote:A couple of things.

(1) A request for information – does the Honorverse tech base include junction-capable drones?

(2) I can't remember the details, but in one of the more recent books there is mention of an exploratory expedition that went down one of the termini in the Felix junction, and never came back. Isn't it about time somebody started asking some questions about that? Especially if the answer to (1) above is "Yes".

(3) The "Hanrahan Interview" question: You might not need a 'cat in the room if HH is present. Hanrahan has such a reputation as a straight arrow that the slightest hint of something not quite kosher could cause questions to be asked, and HH might well be a good enough empath to pick that up.
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(1) No.

(2) It was the Torch wormhole - the exploration ship Harvest Joy. And yes, people are asking questions. But because of the lack of warp capable recon drones the only immediate option would be to send more manned ships down, what may be a killer wormhole, to die. So there' no short term action to take.

(3) Even straight arrow reporters are likely to have enough emotional swirl during important interviews that it'd be hard for a 'cat, or Honor if she was present, to get more than a mild nagging feeling that something was slightly off. I doubt that'll be the red flag that starts unraveling anything.

PeterZ wrote:

George J. Smith wrote:Surely the Mesan ships that were dropping KEWs on the residential towers would have independent records that would prove there were no missiles traces from Mike's fleet?

runsforcelery wrote:
Uh-huh. And who has possession of all those ships after their surrender and so --- purely coincidentally, of course --- finds herself in the perfect position to doctor/eliminate/erase or otherwise . . . modify said records before "discovering" them and providing them to the galaxy as proof positive of her innocence? Someone named "Henke," I believe.

If you're willing to entertain the notion that a Manticoran fleet carried out a deliberate Eridani Edict violation, then you're certainly willing to question any evidence proving their innocence that comes from a Manticoran cntrolled source. And there is no way in the universe that Mike can argue that she didn't have control of every sensor platform in the system by the time the nukes went off.

Even if she actually didn't.

If O'Hanrahan reports events like that, Mike will know where to start looking for the real culprits. O'Hanrahan would know the nukes went off soon after Mike's arrival, but also that the Mesan authorities were out in force trying to stop the ongoing bombings. She would know General Palane was trapped in that Seccie tower defending the inhabitants. If General Oalane was part of a Manty plot capable of successfully bombing location after location all over Mesa to include an island in the middle of nowhere, why haven't they planted bombs in the midst of the forces killing them? No,, a good reported would ask toes sorts of questions and not asking them is a sign she is anything but a good reporter. That would stink to high heaven!

As it is Mike already knows some group believes nuking a planet is a good idea. She just needs a place to start looking and a deliberately disingenuous reporter with a sterling reputation for honesty and integrity would smell enough to draw her attention. Between that and the investigation in the League and there will be key players in the next story arc with incentives to keep on looking for the MAlign. Heck, those players may well be convinced there is a secret group pulling the strings of this disastrous nightmare.

PeterZ, how does having Thandi trapped in a tower and unable to plant bombs prior to 10th Fleet's arrival mean a thing about how those bombs might have arrived on-planet after 10th Fleet's arrival?

Indeed, I'd say your argument actually works against any assumption of Mike's innocence . . . unless you're prepared to seriously suggest that some conspiracy of self-ordained genetic supermen was willing to kill millions of their fellow citizens for no discernible reason? I mean, I suppose it's theoretically possible . . . but so is the possibility that it was actually a shoal of rogue meteorites.

Assume that Thandi and her allies didn't have the capacity to "plant bombs" all over the planet --- which, presumably, they didn't or they would have (assuming they were prepared to inflict that sort of mass casualties). So, Mike arrives in orbit. The system government, navy, and planetary security forces all surrender and stand down. Mike's people have asserted control over all ships and orbital infrastructure. Thandi and her people in the tower are relieved. And then the explosions start all over the planet. Posit me a rational reason for anyone else to be setting them off.

The GA has one: the Alignment did it! Unfortunately, no one outside the GA believes in the Alignment . . . yet. And when/if the rest of the galaxy starts believing in the Alignment, it will only (for reasons made clear in the novel) further undercut Manticore's claims of innocence. (I did mention the Onion has a defense in depth in place on Mesa, didn't I? )

The Ballroom and the Seccies have no reason to be setting them off, unless you accept the argument that they are totally unhinged and indulging in an orgy of bloodshed in the name of vengeance. Of course, then you've got to explain how they got their hands on all those nukes, distributed them so quickly after the Manties arrived (since they obviously didn't have them during their pre-invasion terrorist campaign, given that they didn't use them then). And the peculiar target selection you mentioned comes into play. Assuming that everyone knows just how peculiar it was, of course, and that this nonsense about blowing up island nature preserves isn't just Manty disinformation, Or even a strike the Manties carried out specifically so they could point to its irrationality as evidence that they didn't launch any of the nukes since they had no reason to take out an empty island.

With 10th Fleet in complete control of the system, no other external force could have launched the attacks. Unless, of course, Mike Henke (for some reason) let someone else through to launch them.

So here is a totally honest reporter on the surface of Mesa following the worst deliberate Eridani violation in the history of the Edict, assuming 10th Fleet was behind the attack.Said reporter has zero evidence that anyone else launched the attacks. Said reporter knows that 10th Fleet is offering no plausible explanation for how it could have happened --- absent that nonsense about the Alignment, at least. The only sensor records available are all under the control of 10th Fleet, so any totally honest reporter has to take them with a huge gran of salt, knowing how readily they might have been falsified . . . or suppressed. And the only motivation 10th Fleet can offer at this point for why even their supposed Alignment might have done it is "Because they're bad and they don't like us."


So how does the fact that one reporter doesn't ask why Thandi didn't deploy bombs before 10th Fleet's arrival (when the explosions happened only after 10th Fleet's arrival) point a single finger of suspicion in O'Hanrahan's direction? This woman has a well earned reputation as an investigative reporter who's dragged a huge number of dirty secrets out into the light even at great personal risk (including the possibility of her assassination; some transtellars play rough, after all). She's been a persistent voice of suspicion where the Mandarins' version of who's driving the conflict is concerned. She's been essentially sympathetic to the SKM during its war with the PRH and to the GA following Monica, Spindle, and Oyster Bay. She was initially highly suspicious of Frontier Fleet's version of New Tuscany, only changed her position when she was presented with independently verified sensor evidence that contradicted Manticore's position, and then publicly acknowledged she was wrong and apologized on air when it became evident to her that the sensor data had actually been doctored. She's actually on the ground on Mesa, and she's been harshly critical of the Mesan authorities' explanation of what's happened during Houdini and the reasons for the security forces' crackdown (and all the atrocities associated with it). And she comes to the conclusion --- the obviously regretful conclusion --- that she simply doesn't find 10th Fleet's inability to explain what happened (or why) plausible. So far, she hasn't even said that she's convinced 10th Fleet did it. All she's said is that she isn't convinced 10th Fleet didn't do it . . . and that there are no other plausible suspects on the horizon.

And let's be honest here. Given that 10th Fleet does control all of the sensor platforms in Mesa and does have access to/custody of/control over any existing sensor records, isn't any honest investigative reporter required to take cognizance of that fact? If you're honestly trying to get to the bottom of a mystery attack that killed millions on 10th Fleet's watch, don't you have a responsibility to take the possibility of fabricated or doctored evidence into account and share that possibility with your viewers? Especially if you've already allowed yourself to be suckered by false sensor data once before and you know it?

Nope. I don't see O'Hanrahan's reportage --- and, by the way, she's one of the more restrained media voices on this one --- pointing a smidgeon of suspicion in her direction. Certainly not any more than at the Solarian press corps in general! If she ever goes one millimeter beyond reporting actual facts as facts, that's one thing. At the moment, she isn't.

Not as far as anyone outside the MA knows, at any rate.

runsforcelery wrote:The GA has one: the Alignment did it! Unfortunately, no one outside the GA believes in the Alignment . . . yet. And when/if the rest of the galaxy starts believing in the Alignment, it will only (for reasons made clear in the novel) further undercut Manticore's claims of innocence. (I did mention the Onion has a defense in depth in place on Mesa, didn't I? )

That's just mean. That's super mean.

quite possibly a cat wrote:That's just mean. That's super mean.

Who does that celery guy think he is, coming over here and tormenting us all the time?

Kufat wrote:

quite possibly a cat wrote:That's just mean. That's super mean.

Who does that celery guy think he is, coming over here and tormenting us all the time?

Hey! If you think I give you a hard time, think about what I do to Honor!

runsforcelery wrote:
PeterZ, how does having Thandi trapped in a tower and unable to plant bombs prior to 10th Fleet's arrival mean a thing about how those bombs might have arrived on-planet after 10th Fleet's arrival?

Indeed, I'd say your argument actually works against any assumption of Mike's innocence . . . unless you're prepared to seriously suggest that some conspiracy of self-ordained genetic supermen was willing to kill millions of their fellow citizens for no discernible reason? I mean, I suppose it's theoretically possible . . . but so is the possibility that it was actually a shoal of rogue meteorites.

Assume that Thandi and her allies didn't have the capacity to "plant bombs" all over the planet --- which, presumably, they didn't or they would have (assuming they were prepared to inflict that sort of mass casualties). So, Mike arrives in orbit. The system government, navy, and planetary security forces all surrender and stand down. Mike's people have asserted control over all ships and orbital infrastructure. Thandi and her people in the tower are relieved. And then the explosions start all over the planet. Posit me a rational reason for anyone else to be setting them off.

The GA has one: the Alignment did it! Unfortunately, no one outside the GA believes in the Alignment . . . yet. And when/if the rest of the galaxy starts believing in the Alignment, it will only (for reasons made clear in the novel) further undercut Manticore's claims of innocence. (I did mention the Onion has a defense in depth in place on Mesa, didn't I? )

The Ballroom and the Seccies have no reason to be setting them off, unless you accept the argument that they are totally unhinged and indulging in an orgy of bloodshed in the name of vengeance. Of course, then you've got to explain how they got their hands on all those nukes, distributed them so quickly after the Manties arrived (since they obviously didn't have them during their pre-invasion terrorist campaign, given that they didn't use them then). And the peculiar target selection you mentioned comes into play. Assuming that everyone knows just how peculiar it was, of course, and that this nonsense about blowing up island nature preserves isn't just Manty disinformation, Or even a strike the Manties carried out specifically so they could point to its irrationality as evidence that they didn't launch any of the nukes since they had no reason to take out an empty island.

With 10th Fleet in complete control of the system, no other external force could have launched the attacks. Unless, of course, Mike Henke (for some reason) let someone else through to launch them.

So here is a totally honest reporter on the surface of Mesa following the worst deliberate Eridani violation in the history of the Edict, assuming 10th Fleet was behind the attack.Said reporter has zero evidence that anyone else launched the attacks. Said reporter knows that 10th Fleet is offering no plausible explanation for how it could have happened --- absent that nonsense about the Alignment, at least. The only sensor records available are all under the control of 10th Fleet, so any totally honest reporter has to take them with a huge gran of salt, knowing how readily they might have been falsified . . . or suppressed. And the only motivation 10th Fleet can offer at this point for why even their supposed Alignment might have done it is "Because they're bad and they don't like us."


So how does the fact that one reporter doesn't ask why Thandi didn't deploy bombs before 10th Fleet's arrival (when the explosions happened only after 10th Fleet's arrival) point a single finger of suspicion in O'Hanrahan's direction? This woman has a well earned reputation as an investigative reporter who's dragged a huge number of dirty secrets out into the light even at great personal risk (including the possibility of her assassination; some transtellars play rough, after all). She's been a persistent voice of suspicion where the Mandarins' version of who's driving the conflict is concerned. She's been essentially sympathetic to the SKM during its war with the PRH and to the GA following Monica, Spindle, and Oyster Bay. She was initially highly suspicious of Frontier Fleet's version of New Tuscany, only changed her position when she was presented with independently verified sensor evidence that contradicted Manticore's position, and then publicly acknowledged she was wrong and apologized on air when it became evident to her that the sensor data had actually been doctored. She's actually on the ground on Mesa, and she's been harshly critical of the Mesan authorities' explanation of what's happened during Houdini and the reasons for the security forces' crackdown (and all the atrocities associated with it). And she comes to the conclusion --- the obviously regretful conclusion --- that she simply doesn't find 10th Fleet's inability to explain what happened (or why) plausible. So far, she hasn't even said that she's convinced 10th Fleet did it. All she's said is that she isn't convinced 10th Fleet didn't do it . . . and that there are no other plausible suspects on the horizon.

And let's be honest here. Given that 10th Fleet does control all of the sensor platforms in Mesa and does have access to/custody of/control over any existing sensor records, isn't any honest investigative reporter required to take cognizance of that fact? If you're honestly trying to get to the bottom of a mystery attack that killed millions on 10th Fleet's watch, don't you have a responsibility to take the possibility of fabricated or doctored evidence into account and share that possibility with your viewers? Especially if you've already allowed yourself to be suckered by false sensor data once before and you know it?

Nope. I don't see O'Hanrahan's reportage --- and, by the way, she's one of the more restrained media voices on this one --- pointing a smidgeon of suspicion in her direction. Certainly not any more than at the Solarian press corps in general! If she ever goes one millimeter beyond reporting actual facts as facts, that's one thing. At the moment, she isn't.

Not as far as anyone outside the MA knows, at any rate.

Sorry to disagree, but Thandi was caught up in the tower as Houdini began. Began long before Mike showed up. I recall children's soccer fields blown up during games. Buildings with supposed conferences blown up and blamed on Seccies and the Ballroom. Whatever or whoever was doing this evaded the authorities and managed to plant bombs repeatedly all over Mesa. They had agents planting those bombs after the authorities were looking for them. Yet, when their supposed leaders were cornered by those authorities, those agents which had successfully evaded capture could not plan bombs to relieve their leadership.

That's what I was referencing. O'Hanrahan knew this to be true because she was there.

So, now that Mike arrives, more bombs go off. It strikes me as illogical that a different culprit MUST be at fault for these bombs than the bombs leading up to Mike's arrival. So, if the Ballroom was at fault for the initial bombings, they are at fault now. If they were at fault for the initial bombings why did they not also bomb the forces attacking Palane? If the Ballroom was neutralized by Mesan authorities prior to Mike's arrival, why did they not reveal that fact to O'Hanrahan and other Newsies? The most believable reason is that those agents were not apprehended. If they were not apprehended, then why did not help Thandi?

Taking the bombings that happened before Mike arrives as a completely separate series of events doesn't make sense. Taking all the bombings as part of a single series of events to further a group's goal is the best explanation for them. There are too many inconsistencies to make the culprit demonstrably the Manties.

Yes, I believe that blaming the Manties is believable. I also think that immediately blaming the most recent bombings on Mike despite the ongoing bombings prior to Mike's arrival is a leap to judgement that is inconsistent with O'Hanrahan's modus operandi. Is it too large a disconnect for me to believe, no. It is, however, evidence that I believe should be questioned by Mike's intel weenies.

When Oyster Bay is considered in the context of the Manty claims for these atrocities, I can see opinion going both ways. The bastards responsible for the Yawata Strike earned severe punishment and deserved what Mike did to them or any organization cold blooded enough to kill millions of Manties to harm them would also kill more millions of people to further harm the Manties on Mesa.

So, an immediate opinion formed by a true muckraker would sound odd to me in this context.

quite possibly a cat wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:The GA has one: the Alignment did it! Unfortunately, no one outside the GA believes in the Alignment . . . yet. And when/if the rest of the galaxy starts believing in the Alignment, it will only (for reasons made clear in the novel) further undercut Manticore's claims of innocence. (I did mention the Onion has a defense in depth in place on Mesa, didn't I? )

That's just mean. That's super mean.

After all, who in the universe has the tech needed to create genetic supermen? Manticore's ally, Beowulf, that's who. And who would have the brains to make sure people knew that this millennia-old conspiracy could not possibly have anything to do with Beowulf? The Beowulfans, and their code on not modifying people -- other than themselves, of course,but they don't tell you that. Yes, it's a Beowulf conspiracy, justifying orders to the invincible Solarian League Navy to capture Beowulf, put down the conspiracy like the mad dog it is, and bring the Beowulfan leadership to the fair OFS trials and swift spacings they deserve.

PeterZ wrote:Sorry to disagree, but Thandi was caught up in the tower as Houdini began.

I don't see how Thandi being "stuck" in a rebel base proves she wasn't responsible. Thandi is very much alive. Victor is alive. If they had nuked the forces surrounding them, the response could have been a KEW that would have obliterated the rebel base. Essentially you are asking why didn't they pick a different strategy? The answer is obvious: this strategy won.

O'Hanrahan knew this to be true because she was there.

I see no reason to believe O'Hanrahan knew that Victor and Thandi were cornered by government forces. Certainly Manticore/GA could admit they had operatives on the ground supporting Mesan rebels, and claim that these operatives were in danger, but claims of innocence from the suspect aren't the most meaningful piece of evidence. Worse, it admits GA involvement in the rebellion. Which is not helpful right now.

Taking all the bombings as part of a single series of events to further a group's goal is the best explanation for them.

This is exactly the problem Manticore and the GA has. They were behind the first set of bombings. Anton DID disarm the safties on the Green Pines nuke. They DID set off one of the nukes themselves. A third nuke was one of their co-conspirators. All O'Hanrahan has to do is uncover that, and then the Manties are screwed.

PeterZ wrote:There are too many inconsistencies to make the culprit demonstrably the Manties.

They are the culprits for the first three. They committed one, were essential to carrying out another, and a co-conspirator was responsible for a third! The "inconsistencies" are just that they didn't help Thandi more. Except Thandi is alive. Thandi got all the help she needed.

Yes, I believe that blaming the Manties is believable. I also think that immediately blaming the most recent bombings on Mike despite the ongoing bombings prior to Mike's arrival is a leap to judgement that is inconsistent with O'Hanrahan's modus operandi. Is it too large a disconnect for me to believe, no. It is, however, evidence that I believe should be questioned by Mike's intel weenies.

Umm... accusing powerful people of terrible crimes is basically O'Hanrahan's entire MO. Sure she does it while just as sticking to "just the facts", but I'm assuming she'll do that here. GA intelligence might find something fishy, regardless of if they have good reason to or not. But that won't help clear Manticore's name.

When Oyster Bay is considered in the context of the Manty claims for these atrocities, I can see opinion going both ways. The bastards responsible for the Yawata Strike earned severe punishment and deserved what Mike did to them or any organization cold blooded enough to kill millions of Manties to harm them would also kill more millions of people to further harm the Manties on Mesa.

Oyster Bay was targeted at military assets. Collateral civilian casualties were the result of Manticore putting its military assets right next to civilian populations. The Mesa nukes were targeted at civilians. Also the nukes started before the Oyster Bay strike.