YILDUN - such a tough nut to crack

Eagleeye wrote:

kzt wrote:There's no textev that Yildun is a member of the MAlign, or that the MAN has assets in the system.

I’m totally sure there are absolutely no MAN representatives, under cover or not, working at their main r&d facility.

Remember where we first ran into the Cataphract missile? The OB strike, in the pods the sharks dropped.

Wrong. The first time cataphracts were used was at Torch, during the battle between Rozsaks SLN-units and the ex-havenite Peoples Navy in Exile.

Pod cataphracts Battle of Monica Feb 1921 PD, Ship fired cataphracts Second Torch Oct. 1921PD. Rozak telling Barregos after the battle, he should have remembered those missiles Terekov ran into at Monica. Might have lost fewer ships even with suckier accuracy. Just saying.

Eagleeye wrote:
Concerning your other point, I am sure that there are MAlign representatives at Yildun; maybe even some members of the MAN, but under cover. After all, TIY had to get a reason to develop the cataphract. An order by the MAN could be such a reason, don't you think? Such an order would not be given as MAN, that's for sure, but who says it has to? Part of the MAN is, for example, the Mannerheim System Defense Force, and I bet my 2 cents, that there were observers of them in Manticore and/or Haven during the war.

Hell, I think I remember a scene in Shadow of Saganami, where a Monican Admiral and the TIY-representative in Monica talked about the fact, that - after the change of management in Haven to the Pritchard administration - they don't get examples of manticoran tech anymore. That means, that TIY itself had its own people at least in New Paris during the war, and your guess is as good as mine how big a percentage of these people actually worked for the Mesan Alignment, too. So, TIY may've started the development of the Cataphract for itself - simply to have such a missile available, should some interested party came calling ...

I see no other way for the cataphracts to be ready for use during the Battle of Torch.

Not sure at the end of SoV, But Mesa/Malign had contact through manpower, Mesa system govrrnment, Jessyk Combine ... Not doubting there are agents/assets within Technodyne.

But IIRC didn't Teledyne actually try to sellthose missiles to the SLN first and were turned down for lack of desire to introduce destabilizing weapons? (of course, I may not be).

pappilon wrote:
Pod cataphracts Battle of Monica Feb 1921 PD, Ship fired cataphracts Second Torch Oct. 1921PD. Rozak telling Barregos after the battle, he should have remembered those missiles Terekov ran into at Monica. Might have lost fewer ships even with suckier accuracy. Just saying.

I wonder, if you could call the pod-missiles Terekhov faced in Monica actually Cataphracts. If I remember correctly, they were more like the ERMs Rozsak used himself; because (at least as I remember) the pod-variant in Monica didn't have the 2nd, counter-missile-engine that were the hallmark of the cataphracts in Torch.
That doesn't mean that Rozsak was wrong - he should've remembered the podmissiles used in Monica. But in my opinion, that were no cataphracts.

Back to the original post

What am i missing

Not missing, probably making unwarranted assumptions. (1) Yildun is protected by SLN battle fleet contingent. (2) Technodyne collapses as a corporation if Yildun falls. (3) Technodyne is as ignorant of what is happening in The Haven Sector as the SLN is.

We know Technodyne was supplying tech to Haven. We know they got involved in Monica for samples of Manty hardware. We can probably assume they have knowledge of LACs, Moriarty, FTL. We know they had pods at Monica.

If I had a Military Industrial Complex I'd be building forts around my WH comparable to Manticore's with pod laying capability nd some Moriarty clones among my orbiting habitats and fabrication modules. I'd have my own ships firing up nodes as soon as unknown warships hypered into my system bypassing the junction and its defenses. They would hper out and make short jumps back to n-space drop pods and hyper back out, My platforms could launch the pod missiles and guide them on attack profiles.\

I certainly would not be acting like the SLN.

And it does not fit the strategy or the tactics of the GA for helping the SL self-destruct.

Eagleeye wrote:

pappilon wrote:
Pod cataphracts Battle of Monica Feb 1921 PD, Ship fired cataphracts Second Torch Oct. 1921PD. Rozak telling Barregos after the battle, he should have remembered those missiles Terekov ran into at Monica. Might have lost fewer ships even with suckier accuracy. Just saying.

I wonder, if you could call the pod-missiles Terekhov faced in Monica actually Cataphracts. If I remember correctly, they were more like the ERMs Rozsak used himself; because (at least as I remember) the pod-variant in Monica didn't have the 2nd, counter-missile-engine that were the hallmark of the cataphracts in Torch.
That doesn't mean that Rozsak was wrong - he should've remembered the podmissiles used in Monica. But in my opinion, that were no cataphracts.

Memory does not always serve me these days. Perhaps I'll go alk the dog then research it.

JohnRoth wrote:One should probably consider the strategic objective for Lacoön 2: interdict enough shipping to cause a lot of economic pain to the SL. The Yildun junction simply isn't that important.

The comparison with minesweepers fails on one major point: mines tend to be placed at bottlenecks that ships pretty much have to transit to get into or out of a harbor or through a strait or similar navigational feature.

Shoals of system defense pods can be placed pretty much anywhere, making them difficult to locate. Once located, of course, they can be knocked out with regular warheads. This is why pods tractored to a ship's hull are in a "use it or lose it" situation once the fight starts.

Assuming TIY's system defense pods have the same endurance as Manticore's, then the easiest way to find them is to simply park a few destroyers in stealth around the system and watch for Technodyne's maintenance forces. That'll only take three months or so.

The strategic objective is also to seize terminii. I know that the snippet says that Yildun isn't that important, but it also says that it simply isn't high on its list of priorities. Which infers that it is on the to do list, perhaps when everything else has gotten done. Also, without actually having a full dossier of the system and Solarian MO, it may be more important than the RMN knows. Or have more of a negative effect to League operations than readily obvious. Seems the psychological warfare it produces against the League, as far as pounding League moral, is good. When a running back is running for a touchdown on the football field, hearing footsteps can force a mistake, such as a fumble.

RFC spoke of the problem with morale as an effect of such an operation. I assume he is referring to the emotional beating it would cause a morally inherent outfit like the RMN if so many collateral civilian casualties are incurred. However, I perceive that the League will share in the emotional beating if the termini is taken. If the death of so many civvies can be avoided -- deaths which would negate the success of the operation

As far as finding the pods, that was the idea of the pod finders. Stealthy ships loaded with stealthy probes sent out on pod sweeping vectors. (Cost prohibitive? - As Honor once said, not as expensive as ships and lives) Besides, you only have to sweep the area (and the accompanying circumference) of the Cataphract's missile envelope, of the area of which you intend to operate.

"We're going in on vector A. Sweep this area right here." (Sounds like Abigail.)

I noted the interlocking habitats, but I don't know if that means totally interlocked or sectionally interlocked -- as in interlocked sections amidst interlocked sections. If not, how would easy access be afforded them when considering delivery and maintenance? Also, if it is a totally interlocked system, one accident could destroy the entire infrastructure via a chain reaction, instead of simply sections A - C.

I assume that either Battle Fleet or Frontier Fleet would be guarding the henhouse, but I don't see the Keystone Cops as much more than a nuisance.

I chose not to include all of RFC's post for brevity, but do note that I did link it.

pappilon wrote:Back to the original post

What am i missing

Not missing, probably making unwarranted assumptions. (1) Yildun is protected by SLN battle fleet contingent. (2) Technodyne collapses as a corporation if Yildun falls. (3) Technodyne is as ignorant of what is happening in The Haven Sector as the SLN is.

We know Technodyne was supplying tech to Haven. We know they got involved in Monica for samples of Manty hardware. We can probably assume they have knowledge of LACs, Moriarty, FTL. We know they had pods at Monica.

If I had a Military Industrial Complex I'd be building forts around my WH comparable to Manticore's with pod laying capability nd some Moriarty clones among my orbiting habitats and fabrication modules. I'd have my own ships firing up nodes as soon as unknown warships hypered into my system bypassing the junction and its defenses. They would hper out and make short jumps back to n-space drop pods and hyper back out, My platforms could launch the pod missiles and guide them on attack profiles.\

I certainly would not be acting like the SLN.

And it does not fit the strategy or the tactics of the GA for helping the SL self-destruct.

Thanks pappilon. I wouldn't be surprised if I made unwarranted assumptions. If I did they are totally an incidental accidental. LOL If considering that I don't know enough about TIY or the accompanying tech to even form an assumption. LOL IOW, I got lucky. LOL

About Technodyne, your point (2) regarding the effect of collapsing Technodyne would be a good thing, no?

However (3) has always been a source of my discomfort. Technodyne doesn't know what's going on in the Haven sector -- or rather they didn't, which begs the question of whether their design limitations aren't inherent, but rather are rooted in perception instead of conception. IOW, now that the SLN has informed them of the range of Manty missiles that they are now looking into the matter and it will only be a matter of time. Which also makes one appreciate the RMN's policy from the beginning of never unveiling Apollo's true range. As my sister is fond of saying, "There are spies amongst the flies on the wall."

IMHO Technodyne does know about what is happening in the Haven sector, that is why they went into Monica in the hope they could get access to Manticoran hardware & software.

ISTR that was mentioned in one of the Shadow books as a thought by the Technodyne rep, during the discussions prior to deploying the Sollie BCs to Monica.

George J. Smith wrote:IMHO Technodyne does know about what is happening in the Haven sector, that is why they went into Monica in the hope they could get access to Manticoran hardware & software.

ISTR that was mentioned in one of the Shadow books as a thought by the Technodyne rep, during the discussions prior to deploying the Sollie BCs to Monica.

Of course they know now. The SLN is crying for a bigger missile envelope. However, I'm going to assume that you are pointing out that they already knew prior to the SLN's whining? Which begs the next question whether or not work had already begun and progress already made toward that endeavor.

[Question] In my review of the previous strategy of the RMN to reserve the maximum range of Apollo, does anyone know the maximum range ever displayed by the RMN and how much was held in reserve, accumulatively?* ISTR someone with half-a-brain in the League suggesting that there might indeed be more range withheld by Manty missiles.

Something else of interest is whether Technodyne will develop (1) For as much range as they can get (2) Range to equal assumed Manty range -- which may be in error or (3) Range to exceed assumed Manty range. Which may also be in error and may delay research. (4) Will we see an increase in RMN missile range with the two heads of the S&S at work at Bolthole?

Thus totally reminds me of the discussion of whether the RMN designs their tech against their own tech. Technodyne has to design against perceived Manty missile range. Which can't be easy

*As an aside. I always thought it was interesting that the RMN chose to hold out on displaying max missile range. Which dictated that Apollo could not be issued to just any old Tom, Dick or Santino. Seems knowledge of one's net worth would be inherent in that fact.

"We wouldn't trust you with tickets to the Apollo, much less trust you with Apollo missiles."

LOL Oh make it stop! LOL

As far as I can remember, the missile range from rest, if you only fire the 3 drives one after another without any ballistic phase included, is somehow around 64 million kilometers. Honor herself conceded to Tourville (in MoH, I think), that he was out of effective range of her ships in the BoMa, because he was around a 100 million kilometers away. And even for the attack against Admiral Chin in the same battle, Honor needed a ballistic segment - and Chin was no more than 72.93 million kilometers away (according to AaC, Chapter 68)

It is possible - in fact, I'm sure of that - that there were enhancements since that battle, both in drive endurance and fire control - but nonetheless, I think, that the MDM with 3 drives has no more than 80 million kilometers without a ballistic phase integrated in it. The system defense Apollo missile, with 4 drives, is yet another animal, of course.