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Filareta's missles -- why??

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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:34 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Providing hidden genetic assistance to people as well as money and advice could get the Detweiler ideas spread more widely. After all, the first phase was 500 years, why not that long for a second stage? After all, moving in really good genes to people, allowing them to live far longer, will go a long way towards winning hearts and minds.


Well, if Honorverse weren't generally black&white universe, thee possible explanation may be the Beowulfian demonization of anything connected to human augmentation. Let's not forget, Beowulf is one of the oldest member worlds of the League, the accepted higher authority in human genetics...It wouldnt be surprizing if Beowulf hampered with all Deitweller's attempt to do things legally, forcing Mesa to resort to covert actions.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:26 pm

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Nyssa wrote:Yes, I know. However, he was thinking that even firm orders have wiggle room, and if he decided the odds were not in his favor he wouldn't attack. This was with the super misses. With standard misses maybe he would have just called things off. At least that way, he would still be alive.


He didn't seem to think the missiles were that big an improvement and he thought he had enough firepower it didn't matter. Without the missiles it would have played out the same--he goes in, Honor shows him how totally wrong he is, he surrenders, the saboteur fires the missiles and kills him.
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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:16 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Nyssa wrote:Yes, I know. However, he was thinking that even firm orders have wiggle room, and if he decided the odds were not in his favor he wouldn't attack. This was with the super misses. With standard misses maybe he would have just called things off. At least that way, he would still be alive.


He didn't seem to think the missiles were that big an improvement and he thought he had enough firepower it didn't matter. Without the missiles it would have played out the same--he goes in, Honor shows him how totally wrong he is, he surrenders, the saboteur fires the missiles and kills him.


One difference. Without long-range missiles, his attack would look so stupid, that even Mandarins would suspect something.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:37 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:Providing hidden genetic assistance to people as well as money and advice could get the Detweiler ideas spread more widely. After all, the first phase was 500 years, why not that long for a second stage? After all, moving in really good genes to people, allowing them to live far longer, will go a long way towards winning hearts and minds.


Well, if Honorverse weren't generally black&white universe, thee possible explanation may be the Beowulfian demonization of anything connected to human augmentation. Let's not forget, Beowulf is one of the oldest member worlds of the League, the accepted higher authority in human genetics...It wouldnt be surprizing if Beowulf hampered with all Deitweller's attempt to do things legally, forcing Mesa to resort to covert actions.


That's basically canon. Detweiller originated on Beowulf and colonized Mesa because his ideas made Beowulf too hot to hold him.
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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by Dilandu   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:48 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
That's basically canon. Detweiller originated on Beowulf and colonized Mesa because his ideas made Beowulf too hot to hold him.


What I'm saying is that Beowulf may not only get Detweiller to go, but may actually continue to hamper his ideas until he (or his descendants) have no choice but to go undercover and plot to take over the Galaxy. Lets not forget, Mesa actually make a breakthrough in human genetic modification - basically proving that they were right. But for some reason, they were completely unable to just advance their sucsesses legaly, like providing genetic modification services Galaxy-wide. The most probable explanation - they already tried that way, and Beowulf crushed their attempt to legalize general human augmentation (probably by using political pressure of League)

After all, we alredy knew that Beowulf have a not-too-hidden commando/saboteur forces, i.e. Survey Corps, which is basically messi g with the affairs of independent star systems and societies the hard way. It isn't too far off to assume, that the initial idea of the Corps was not just to fought genetic slavery, but actually to eradicate ANY "too far" augmentation... And let's not forget, Beowulf for some reason mantained pretty decent navy, and for some reason didn't want just to put SLN squadrons here - which would be simpler and cheaper solutions.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
Top
Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:35 pm

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Dilandu wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:
That's basically canon. Detweiller originated on Beowulf and colonized Mesa because his ideas made Beowulf too hot to hold him.


What I'm saying is that Beowulf may not only get Detweiller to go, but may actually continue to hamper his ideas until he (or his descendants) have no choice but to go undercover and plot to take over the Galaxy. Lets not forget, Mesa actually make a breakthrough in human genetic modification - basically proving that they were right. But for some reason, they were completely unable to just advance their sucsesses legaly, like providing genetic modification services Galaxy-wide. The most probable explanation - they already tried that way, and Beowulf crushed their attempt to legalize general human augmentation (probably by using political pressure of League)

After all, we alredy knew that Beowulf have a not-too-hidden commando/saboteur forces, i.e. Survey Corps, which is basically messi g with the affairs of independent star systems and societies the hard way. It isn't too far off to assume, that the initial idea of the Corps was not just to fought genetic slavery, but actually to eradicate ANY "too far" augmentation... And let's not forget, Beowulf for some reason mantained pretty decent navy, and for some reason didn't want just to put SLN squadrons here - which would be simpler and cheaper solutions.



I don’t think you’ve been paying close enough attention.

At the time that Detweiler left Beowulf, the Beowulf Code’s prohibition on genetic modification of humans was not — and still is not — unconditional. It places limits on that genetic modification, prohibiting things like the introduction of non-human DNA or the construction of “new” genes — the equivalent of genetically modified organisms on a level which inserts laboratory-constructed genes rather than combining existing genes or selecting the most favorable combination of genetic material. There are a lot of genetically modified human beings running around the galaxy with the complete approval of the Beowulf medical and political communities, including one Honor Harrington.

The restrictions that the Beowulf Code placed on genetic modification — aside from the physical restraints listed above — were designed not to prevent individual humans from being “improved” with stronger muscles, tougher bones, greater longevity, increased intelligence, any of those factors. They were designed to outlaw systematic programs designed at creating a . . . stratified genetic spectrum. One in which the existence of, for example, Alpha lines, or beta lines, or gamma lines created a new form of racism based, this time, on overtly quantifiable genetic differences.

The restrictions on the extent and the degree of radical modification stemmed from the genetically-engineered horrors of Earth’s Final War, when genetic modification had been weaponized with catastrophic consequences. Detweiler’s move to Mesa was made in the shadow of those restrictions, and I thought it had been made fairly clear in the course of the books that he had a point. It was within humanity’s grasp to genetically improve and uplift humanity. He believed the “fears of little minds” had caused Beowulf and the League to turn its back upon that possibility. His opponents believed that his proposals were reckless, unbridled, and all too likely to reopen the door to what had happened on Old Earth but spread throughout the League.

Both factions were right.

Unfortunately, when Detweiler headed to Mesa he took with him the most extreme proponents of his view, which removed the voice of opposition to the Beowulf Code’s restrictions from inside the Beowulf medical community and the League in general. Far worse, however, was his decision — based in no small part on his fury at the “small minded cretins” who had driven him from his home world — to begin creating genetically modified “indentured servants.” In time (although not until after his death) the “indentured servants” turned into outright slaves. By creating that situation, he had accomplished exactly what the Beowulf Code’s proponents had feared: he had created purposely designed, sellable property out of human beings and, in effect, reinvented racism in the form of the widespread prejudice against genetic slaves which, after all, had to be subhuman because they were property which had been built to be sold.

That only underscored the fundamental hostility between Beowulf and Mesa, its “evil twin.” Beowulf’s hostility towards Mesa and, especially, genetic slavery grew even more pronounced, and Beowulf — unlike Mesa — was a member of the League, in a position to have genetic slavery outlawed. In essence, to make Mesa clearly a “rogue state” in League eyes, since it was the source of all those genetic slaves and of the slave traders who had now been outlawed.

While that was going on, Beowulf itself was continuing in a tradition of what you might call “gradualist genetic uplift.” The Beowulf Code had never prohibited incremental improvement in the human genotype, and it still doesn’t. It would never have tolerated for an instant the eugenics programs on Mesa which could lead to the deliberate production of high-risk children who, like Francesca Simões, are “culled” if they prove unsuccessful. That is precisely the sort of thinking that the Beowulf Code was designed to prevent in the beginning. However, it would not be unfair to say that Beowulf has largely achieved much of the original Detweiler’s dream.

Unfortunately, while that was going on, the Detweiler Plan was being formulated and put into effect on Mesa. I thought that I had made it clear that the Detweilers and the relatively small number of people fully inside the onion who are formulating the Alignment’s true policy aren’t rational. I don’t mean they aren't very smart, I don’t mean they aren't capable of rational thought. I mean that their fundamental postulates and assumptions are irrational, the product of literally centuries inside an echo chamber where hatred spawned by ideology has become in many respects the primary driver of ideology.

Beowulf has never used its special forces to destabilize Mesa or to attempt to prevent voluntary and incremental genetic modification and improvement. Its special forces have been directed specifically at Manpower and genetic slavery, with overlap to oppose Mesan transstellars in general because those transstellars have an even higher degree of rapaciousness and are so deeply involved in the Solarian League’s internal corruption. (Again, some of this stems from a "rogue state's" contempt for — and determination to exploit and punish — the system which has sanctimoniously declared it and outlaw.) Mesans in general don’t really appreciate the fact that Beowulf’s active opposition is not to all things Mesan, but rather to specific activities of Mesan commercial enterprises like — and especially — the purveyors of genetic slaves. It becomes opposition to the Mesan government because the Mesan government is completely in the pocket of Mesa’s transstellars and huge corporations. When government policy is specifically structured to support and export the institutions and the practices which Beowulf is dedicated to destroying, then Beowulf comes into conflict with Mesa as a political entity, as well.

Now, not all Beowulfers realize the . . . targeted nature (or cause, at least) of Beowulf’s hostility towards Mesa any more than all Mesans do. After so long, the hatred is deep, visceral, and automatic. Effectively a knee-jerk reaction on both sides. That is one of the major factors in the current political situation.

Several characters in the novels have reflected on the fact that if the Alignment had spent a fraction of its resources on propaganda, public education, and advocacy groups, it could long ago have achieved its goal of legitimizing human genetic uplift in the eyes of the galaxy in general, whatever Beowulf might think. More to the point, the Alignment might have realized that — in the sense of accomplishing the original Detweiler’s goals — it had already won. In fairness, not even Beowulf has really recognized that fact, because just as Beowulf has been demonized in the eyes of the onion, Detweiler has been demonized in the eyes of Beowulfers. He was “obviously” an unhinged lunatic, and the fact that he truly was the “father of genetic slavery” (whether he ever realized it would go that far or not) goes a long way towards validating that view of him outside the Onion. By the same token, the Onion’s goals have become much more extreme than his were. They are no longer talking about the general uplift of the human species. They are talking about creating specific groups of genetically engineered individuals who are as designed for their roles as anyone in Plato’s Republic. They are busy trying to create a genetically stratified society with the alpha lines permanently in the position of the “vanguard of the proletariat," and constrain all the rest of the human race to accept it.

The two sides are no longer really fighting over the issues which led Detweiler to lead his group of dissidents to Mesa. On those issues, Detweiler won, for all intents and purposes. The problem is that his descendents don’t realize/aren’t prepared to admit that that’s happened. It is more important to them to prove that they are right and Beowulf is wrong by imposing their own view of a “genetically improved human race” upon the rest of humanity than it is to simply be right.

That’s the real tragedy of the Mesan Alignment. In fact, it’s why — to my thinking — the situation isn’t black and white any more than the People’s Republic was unrelievedly evil or the Star Kingdom of Manticore was unrelievedly good. Rob Pierre had many good qualities and goals; Baron High Ridge had very few. The Detweiler boys have many good qualities and (for those who support the Onion) goals, and – like Oscar Saint-Just — they are totally prepared to commit morally horrific actions in pursuit of those goals. Which is what makes the Alignment a tragedy. They’ve spent centuries — hundreds of thousands or even millions of man-hours, uncountable trillions of credits, and an uncountable number of lives — in pursuit of an altruistic and laudable goal and, in the process, turned themselves into something which continues to support genetic slavery as a useful tool and is prepared to inflict megadeaths on civilian targets to create a genetically stratified societal pyramid which puts them at its apex.

They are, in effect, a totalitarian state which justifies its existence by claiming to pursue a noble goal without recognizing — or, at least, admitting — that that “noble goal” has become solely a justification for its own continued existence.

I don’t have the Detweilers sitting around discussing that transition. They’re inside the process, unable (or unwilling . . . or both) even to see what they’ve become, far less acknowledge it. The (relative) handful of alpha and beta line agents who truly understand the Alignment’s goals are true-believers, carefully inculcated with the Onion’s view of galactic society. Sometimes — as in the case of Jack McBryde — they see beyond the blinkers, and that always spells trouble for the Onion. It’s always possible (I’m only the writer, after all, so what do I know?), that this sort of problem could become . . . more general for them farther down the road. We’ve already seen some “leakers,” after all. But the leadership is even more captive to its ideology than its agents are, and therein lie the seeds of the war between the Solarian League and the Grand Alliance and whatever may ultimately come of it. Not because people are making rational choices, and not because the people involved are black-and-white, but because ideological conflict is so often driven by components which are fundamentally irrational.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by kzt   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:48 pm

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I love these posts. Even when you are telling me I'm totally wrong it's great to see your underlying thinking.
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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by Joat42   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:00 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:..snip..
I don’t have the Detweilers sitting around discussing that transition. They’re inside the process, unable (or unwilling . . . or both) even to see what they’ve become, far less acknowledge it. The (relative) handful of alpha and beta line agents who truly understand the Alignment’s goals are true-believers, carefully inculcated with the Onion’s view of galactic society. Sometimes — as in the case of Jack McBryde — they see beyond the blinkers, and that always spells trouble for the Onion. It’s always possible (I’m only the writer, after all, so what do I know?), that this sort of problem could become . . . more general for them farther down the road. We’ve already seen some “leakers,” after all. But the leadership is even more captive to its ideology than its agents are, and therein lie the seeds of the war between the Solarian League and the Grand Alliance and whatever may ultimately come of it. Not because people are making rational choices, and not because the people involved are black-and-white, but because ideological conflict is so often driven by components which are fundamentally irrational.


"The face of evil is no one’s face," and "It is always a false image that is imposed or projected on the opponent." - Roy Baumeister, Evil - Inside Human Violence and Cruelty.
"The most horrifying things about the Nazis was not that they were so deviant but that they were terrifyingly normal." - Hannah Arendt

The villain never sees him/her-self as the villain, it's just that everyone else doesn't understand his/her vision.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by kzt   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:51 pm

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Joat42 wrote:The villain never sees him/her-self as the villain, it's just that everyone else doesn't understand his/her vision.

Everyone is the hero in their personal story. Very, very few people do evil because they want to do evil. They do it because it's easy or convenient or fun.

I know a guy who is a prison guard at a high security prison full of very dangerous men who have done horrible things and the vast majority take no responsibility. It's all someone else's fault, typically their victims.
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Re: Filareta's missles -- why??
Post by Donnachaidh   » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:18 pm

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Joat42 wrote:The villain never sees him/her-self as the villain, it's just that everyone else doesn't understand his/her vision.


Gul Dukat in Star Trek Deep Space Nine is one of my favorite examples of that.
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