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The logistics of SLN commerce raiding

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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:49 am

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:And I don't consider Beth asking for stronger measures, to be off the table. Especially if Manticoran citizens began getting murdered wholesale under the guise of "commerce raiding." I don't see Beth swallowing too many of these. The one person that cares as much about her charges as Honor... is Beth. Arguably even more.


"Stronger Measures" does NOT necessarily mean attacking league member civilians. The GA is already committed to defeating the SLN wherever and whenever they find them. "Stronger measures" simply means capturing a few FF bases with the info on raider logistics and making bonfires out of raiders when they show up somewhere to resupply.

Destroying the SLN -- preferably without killing everyone in the SLN -- is a legitimate tactic. Terrorizing civilians and destroying League Member infrastructure is not: Not if Manticore and the GA intend to survive in the long-term

Very well. But before I capitulate, flip my end and flash my running lights...

And if that latest but stronger UN measure doesn't work against Kim Jong-un? How many immediate GA lives are forfeitable?

I know that the Harrington Doctrine is as fragile as rice paper and the GA has to tread lightly, but my stronger measure would include a road trip by Eighth Fleet to destroy critical nodes in Solarian space. That's why I'm not in Caparelli's shoes.

Would an ultimatum delivered by Eighth Fleet wake the sleeping giant? Or would surrender terms prompt the restless League natives of the perfect time to secede?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:25 am

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Brigade XO wrote:The US subs in the Pacific both killed a lot of Japanese ships and crews and troops. It crippled the import of all goods to Japan and movement of men and equipment out from in and between staging areas and destinations. It also forced Japan to divert warships to run as escorts for the tankers, freighters and troopships as well as for larger warships. The subs, given they were on Earth, could sometimes report enemy movements if the appeared critical or were tasked with recon missions or landing & recovering raiders to various enemy bases such as radio listening posts and communications relays.
Its really tough to send out warships when you aren't getting enough oil to meet projected operational needs and industrial production of war materials.

Kingsford has to make a number of difficult choices in what he tells the people doing the commerce raiding how to conduct the campaign. He already has the idea that the SLN is likely to loose in any one-to-one engagement of equal sized ships and the SEM/RHN is consistantly performing well above their nominal class designations. So he is going to face a decision of at least pairing ships in the raiding because sooner or later they are going to run into a GA ship patroling or on convoy duty.

IF a warship attacks or forces to surrender a merchant just inside or outside the hyperlimit of a system it is possible that if the crew is allowed to abandon ship they can head in-system expecting some sort of assistence from whaterve inter system ships are there. Or there may not be anything that can actualy be of help even if it has the legs to go out to meet the surivors. If the merchant is it away from an inhabited system (like the Peeps were doing in Silesia) then the odds of survival are low because they have to depend on some other passing ship to notice them and stop.
Going along with that, there is an actual war going on and SLN warships really are fair game anywhere even if the GA isn't currently going into SL space. The areas out on the Verge where OFS is working their protection rackets is another matter. Most of these inhabited systema are nomininaly independent thought they may just be OFS puppets or satraps of various Interstellars. The GA can go looking for SLN warships there and be covered by exactly the same fig leaf FF and OFS is using. This is NOT SL space, we are just looking to protect the commerce of the local systems. That the GA is not killing or capturing freighter and the SLN is will become abundently clear to anybody who bothers to pay attention and it will still end up with the GA running essentialy anti-piracy sweeps while the SLN is waging ecomomic warfare against almost everybody else. Not a really good way to try and paint yourself as holding the moral high ground.

That the SLN is going to have to usually use ambush tactics to do much damage to GA forces is going to lead them to try and swarm GA ships when they can't do small ambushes. They are still going to come off with an abysmal loss ration in combat with GA warships.

I would suspect that shortly after there is eveidence of the commerce raiding, the GA is going to send strike forces in on known or suspected SLN (mostly FF) logistics nodes and Sector Governers locations and just blow the crap out of any SLN assets in systems. They may leave the orbital stations and industrial facilities but every SLN ship is going to be destoryed and, quite possibly the surviving OFS/SLN senior officer will be told that they are just going to have to handle their own rescue and recovery of surviving SLN staff becaus the GA force has other pirate nests to go clear out. Your in a system you hold and have been raiding merchant shipping....If you don't like having to pick up your own people in a system you are still alive in, just say so and will will pick them up and hold them for trial on suspision of piracy. Your choice.
Granted, that would be fairly heavy handed without evidence in their pockets that it was a ship or ships based her or using it for resuppy that have been doing the raiding, but could be dam effective. Want to fight a GA warship, bring it on. Want to be all brave and courageous to go out and murder non-combatant merchants, you can have the penalties that go with the crimes. The SLN spacer will even get fair trials under existing SL law....really big smile.

Someone has already mentioned that the problem with commerce raiding in the 'Verse is that it has no direct chance of forcing a dénouement, other than the loss of lives -- unless the raiding party(ies) is successful in targeting convoys of advanced tech. Which the GA will not leave lightly escorted. It does have the effect of spreading an enemy's naval strength, but in the RMNs case it wouldn't matter -- if the GA are the raiders. In fact, if Eighth Fleet raids League space, they'd want a concentrated SLN force to facilitate killing as many warbirds with one launch.

I don't see the SLN picking up lifepods full of barbarians. That is a possibility that needs considering. Remember, there was a time when the Peeps could not be counted on to pick up pods.

I suppose the only chance of that would be the relatively few pods the Peeps would want to take home as prizes for propaganda. If the League forces pods from a ship -- considering the logistic limitations of a successful SLN raiding strategy -- it is highly likely those pods will have little chance of survival -- being so far away from civilization. By pod standards.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are a few SLN ships who target the pods with grasers. Barbarians aren't people. They're targets. And many SLN officers loathe Manticorans and it is highly likely they have friends who have been granted lifetime tickets to Valhalla at the hand of Manticoran missiles.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:54 am

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cthia wrote:...but my stronger measure would include a road trip by Eighth Fleet to destroy critical nodes in Solarian space. ...


Just what do you consider a "Critical Node?"
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by kzt   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:09 am

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Weird Harold wrote:Just what do you consider a "Critical Node?"

Probably something that would cause the majority of the SL to agree to fight to the bitter end.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by cthia   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:55 am

cthia
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kzt wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Just what do you consider a "Critical Node?"

Probably something that would cause the majority of the SL to agree to fight to the bitter end.

Now kzt! ... tsk tsk tsk. You know that's unfair. You know full well from reading my posts that I favor roasting some Solarian League Navy ass! And be damned the Harrington Doctrine! LOL

Fortunately for me, RFCs latest snippet supplies such a node... Technodyne. There must be other similar military soft spots as well. BUT! Admittedly! Since one of you may be adopted, I might as well admit that I'm in favor of sending Eighth Fleet into Solarian space and asking for a surrender. I think it will serve fuel and opportunity for the League's fed-up and scorned appendages to secede. Now that Beowulf has set the example and opened their eyes to the notion.

Oh come on y'all! I think it is only kosher kismet that the centuries old bully faces surrender while looking down the barrel of barbarians. :roll:

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Theemile   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:28 am

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cthia wrote:
Fortunately for me, RFCs latest snippet supplies such a node... Technodyne. There must be other similar military soft spots as well. BUT! Admittedly! Since one of you may be adopted, I might as well admit that I'm in favor of sending Eighth Fleet into Solarian space and asking for a surrender. I think it will serve fuel and opportunity for the League's fed-up and scorned appendages to secede. Now that Beowulf has set the example and opened their eyes to the notion.

Oh come on y'all! I think it is only kosher kismet that the centuries old bully faces surrender while looking down the barrel of barbarians. :roll:


Unfortunately, not everything from Technodyne comes out of Yildune. TIY also had manufacturing on Mesa, amongst other places, and Filaretta's specifically noted that his missiles came from Mesa (which by October will also be in GA hands).

So attack Yildune will not destroy technodyne, but will send a message to the SL.

(OH, IIRC Yildune is also a RF member....)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Vince   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:34 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
Fortunately for me, RFCs latest snippet supplies such a node... Technodyne. There must be other similar military soft spots as well. BUT! Admittedly! Since one of you may be adopted, I might as well admit that I'm in favor of sending Eighth Fleet into Solarian space and asking for a surrender. I think it will serve fuel and opportunity for the League's fed-up and scorned appendages to secede. Now that Beowulf has set the example and opened their eyes to the notion.

Oh come on y'all! I think it is only kosher kismet that the centuries old bully faces surrender while looking down the barrel of barbarians. :roll:


Unfortunately, not everything from Technodyne comes out of Yildune. TIY also had manufacturing on Mesa, amongst other places, and Filaretta's specifically noted that his missiles came from Mesa (which by October will also be in GA hands).

So attack Yildune will not destroy technodyne, but will send a message to the SL.

(OH, IIRC Yildune is also a RF member....)

There are no Technodyne manufacturing facilities on Mesa. Just a corporate headquarters. SLN Admiral Filareta thinking to himself at Tasmania before leaving for Manticore:
A Rising Thunder, Chapter 9 wrote:That was the final element which had him considering the sort of “paranoid conspiracy theories” with which Burrows had so little patience. The order to prepare to receive a massive influx of reinforcements had arrived on April the eleventh, with instructions to sortie no later than the twenty-fifth. Obviously, the reinforcements he was to expect had already been put into motion, and although the timetable had been tight, he’d felt reasonably confident of making the ordered departure date. Except that two days later he’d received orders to await a convoy of ammunition ships loaded with the latest Technodyne ship-to-ship and system defense missile variants. As a follow-up dispatch had explained, it would delay the operation by no more than forty-eight hours, assuming the missile colliers experienced no delays of their own.
He’d been surprised Technodyne was supplying anything, given the legal firestorm still swirling around the huge arms manufacturer. But then he’d examined the new order a bit more closely and discovered that the “Technodyne” shipment had actually originated in the Mesa System.
Which was odd, since there was no Technodyne manufacturing facility in that star system.
Technodyne did have a corporate headquarters on Mesa, so it might have made sense for shipping orders to originate there, but there was no way the missiles themselves should be coming from that star system. Not if they’d actually been built by Technodyne, at least.
Unless, perhaps, they were coming out of ammunition stockpiles already amassed by someone—someone other than the Solarian League Navy—in the aforesaid system.
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Theemile   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:14 pm

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Vince wrote:
Theemile wrote:
Unfortunately, not everything from Technodyne comes out of Yildune. TIY also had manufacturing on Mesa, amongst other places, and Filaretta's specifically noted that his missiles came from Mesa (which by October will also be in GA hands).

So attack Yildune will not destroy technodyne, but will send a message to the SL.

(OH, IIRC Yildune is also a RF member....)

There are no Technodyne manufacturing facilities on Mesa. Just a corporate headquarters. SLN Admiral Filareta thinking to himself at Tasmania before leaving for Manticore:
A Rising Thunder, Chapter 9 wrote:That was the final element which had him considering the sort of “paranoid conspiracy theories” with which Burrows had so little patience. The order to prepare to receive a massive influx of reinforcements had arrived on April the eleventh, with instructions to sortie no later than the twenty-fifth. Obviously, the reinforcements he was to expect had already been put into motion, and although the timetable had been tight, he’d felt reasonably confident of making the ordered departure date. Except that two days later he’d received orders to await a convoy of ammunition ships loaded with the latest Technodyne ship-to-ship and system defense missile variants. As a follow-up dispatch had explained, it would delay the operation by no more than forty-eight hours, assuming the missile colliers experienced no delays of their own.
He’d been surprised Technodyne was supplying anything, given the legal firestorm still swirling around the huge arms manufacturer. But then he’d examined the new order a bit more closely and discovered that the “Technodyne” shipment had actually originated in the Mesa System.
Which was odd, since there was no Technodyne manufacturing facility in that star system.
Technodyne did have a corporate headquarters on Mesa, so it might have made sense for shipping orders to originate there, but there was no way the missiles themselves should be coming from that star system. Not if they’d actually been built by Technodyne, at least.
Unless, perhaps, they were coming out of ammunition stockpiles already amassed by someone—someone other than the Solarian League Navy—in the aforesaid system.
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.


Ah, thanks for the catch Vince.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:12 pm

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cthia wrote:Fortunately for me, RFCs latest snippet supplies such a node... Technodyne. There must be other similar military soft spots as well.


Technodyne -- at least their facilities at Yildun -- are already on the priority target list. At least they should be. Not particularly because they are a prime supplier to the SLN, but because they were directly involved at Monica and on the Mesa Board of Directors.

Technodyne's military production facilities are a legitimate target for a variety of reasons. Their toaster and washing machine factories in the Wolf Cluster (or whatever and wherever they build stuff for civilians) isn't a legitimate military target.

cthia wrote:BUT! Admittedly! Since one of you may be adopted, I might as well admit that I'm in favor of sending Eighth Fleet into Solarian space and asking for a surrender.


Patience, Grasshopper.

Surrender of an intact Solarian League is the LAST thing the GA should be working for. The only route to long-term survival is the dissolution of the Solarian League.

The Sol System has a few legitimate military targets, like the SLN base at Mars or the BF Reserve. Conquest and Occupation of the Mars Base might be how Honor meets Kingsford face to face, but otherwise anything in the Sol system has "Public Relations Armor."

There's not really anything leaving the Sol system except orders. The threat is the BF and FF units executing those orders. All of the action and priority targets are elsewhere.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: The logistics of SLN commerce raiding
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:40 pm

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[quote=

The Sol System has a few legitimate military targets, like the SLN base at Mars or the BF Reserve. Conquest and Occupation of the Mars Base might be how Honor meets Kingsford face to face, but otherwise anything in the Sol system has "Public Relations Armor."

There's not really anything leaving the Sol system except orders. The threat is the BF and FF units executing those orders. All of the action and priority targets are elsewhere.[/quote]

Occupations of Mars base falls under the heading of A REALLY BAD IDEA. You want to put feet on the ground at the next planet out in the same system as EARTH? Your people are all going to die down there if you do that.

I might even go along with a deep raid that shot any SLN warship it could from just outside the hyper-limit (and hang around with hot nodes just long enough for all those deeper in the gravity well to "have" to rise to the bait or be branded cowards by all those uptanding SL citizens on Earth watching the miserable performance of the 800lb syphilitic gorilla with dementia) before moving on to better hunting grounds.
Brings to mind the taunting scene from "The Holy Grail" Your mother was a hampster and your father smells of Elderberry wine!!!
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