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Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose

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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:26 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:No SL grasers and no LACs. At the crucial moment, she's on her own.

Oh, and no pods, either. :twisted:

And the RMN's practice is to design its ships to stand up to its own weapons and tactical doctrine (as much as humanly possible, at least) because they've been the biggest. baddest offensive machine around for like the last 25-30 years. Why design your ships to stand up to the second baddest weapons mix when you have complete specs on the baddest of the bad and can design accordingly? :roll:
Given that is seems like she's on her own with just one Manticoran DD and no pods, LACs, or other warships in support I hope she's got at least a Wolfhound (deeper mags than a Roland but maybe half the missile range. And LERMs probably don't carry as heavy a warhead as the Mk16)

Can't wait to read the whole thing - though speculating wildly at snippets is fun too.
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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:44 am

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phillies wrote:I seem to recall that by the time the Montana was armored to stand up to its own guns, the result was a bit disappointing. Your mileage may vary.



Engage Hobby Horse Mode:

Nope, the final design for the Montana was pretty damned good. The problem was BuOrd's super-heavy shell. Its penetration was very much on a par with other people's 18" shells and, as further developed for the Montana would have been even more destructive. That being the case, BuShips opted for a lighter main battery than she could have had (i.e., stuck with the 16" instead of upgunning) and still needed a 16" belt (as opposed to the Iowa's 12") , but she was still good for 28-30 knots, she had an immune zone against her own guns (with super heavy shells) on the order of 13,000 yards (it was 18,000 yards against anyone else's 16"), she had an anti-torpedo system that worked (unlike the South Dakota, Iowa, and Missouri classes, where the anti-torpedo features had been compromised because of fear of underwater shell hits at extreme range), and was a far better seaboat than the Iowas. With her designed radar suite (and let's not discuss the nuclear 16" shell developed in the 1950s for the Iowa's main battery, shall we?), she could have kicked the posterior of any other ship in the world once she got into gun range. Of course, that was the rub: gun range as opposed to airstrike range.

The real reason they weren't built wasn't that they weren't superb ships; it was that in 1942 (when they were indefinitely delayed) the USN needed carriers worse and carriers could be built much more quickly) and in 1946 (when the Navy wanted to reinstate frozen programs) no one else in the world had battleships except for our friends and close allies the Brits (the 4 surviving KGVs and Vanguard . . . for about three years) and the French (2 Richelieus). Had anyone else had comparable ships, or had there been any prospect of anyone else's acquiring true heavy surface combatants, they would still have been required if only to protect the flight decks.

Of course, nobody but our friends had carriers, either, which is the reason the USN had basically been slated for the junk heap in favor of the Air Force until Korea came along and those pesky North Koreans overran all the friendly airfields on the peninsula, at which point the navy sort of cleared its throat and said, "Ahem. We still have some carriers, you know, despite Louis Johnson, and if no one would mind too terribly, we'd sort of like to explore the possibility of maybe using them to keep our guys inside the Pusan Perimeter from being overrun and massacred. No offense, of course." (That last was just twisting the knife, I fear. :lol: )


Disengage Hobby Horse Mode


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:48 am

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runsforcelery wrote:No SL grasers and no LACs. At the crucial moment, she's on her own.

Oh, and no pods, either. :twisted:


Spoilsport. :lol:

I was afraid the clues meant no pods, so I hope it isn't a Roland with such limited magazine capacity. The clues suggest it probably isn't, but that's not a solid deduction.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:59 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:No SL grasers and no LACs. At the crucial moment, she's on her own.

Oh, and no pods, either. :twisted:


Spoilsport. :lol:

I was afraid the clues meant no pods, so I hope it isn't a Roland with such limited magazine capacity. The clues suggest it probably isn't, but that's not a solid deduction.

I hope the improved the war heads on those smaller DD missiles. BuWeap improved the LAC missiles warheads after all.
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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:07 am

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PeterZ wrote:I hope the improved the war heads on those smaller DD missiles. BuWeap improved the LAC missiles warheads after all.


I don't think we know much about RHN DD/CL missiles or warheads. We can assume they have something equivalent to the RMN's LERM and ERM missiles. Something similar to the MK-16G warhead or the intermediate MK-16E1(?) could be fitted to any missile warhead.

Since our mysterious DD Skipper has apparently already destroyed a SLN BC or two, she's either got something like MK-16Gs or she's running out of missiles.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:11 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I hope the improved the war heads on those smaller DD missiles. BuWeap improved the LAC missiles warheads after all.


I don't think we know much about RHN DD/CL missiles or warheads. We can assume they have something equivalent to the RMN's LERM and ERM missiles. Something similar to the MK-16G warhead or the intermediate MK-16E1(?) could be fitted to any missile warhead.

Since our mysterious DD Skipper has apparently already destroyed a SLN BC or two, she's either got something like MK-16Gs or she's running out of missiles.

RFC stated she is not Havenite and the DD is not a Roland. So, an older RMN DD but obviously armed with better warheads than Honor's Fearless in OBS. Those warheads Fearless fired didn't have the punch to take out the PRN Q ship before almost using up her entire forward magazine.
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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:27 am

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PeterZ wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:[

I don't think we know much about RHN DD/CL missiles or warheads. We can assume they have something equivalent to the RMN's LERM and ERM missiles. Something similar to the MK-16G warhead or the intermediate MK-16E1(?) could be fitted to any missile warhead.

Since our mysterious DD Skipper has apparently already destroyed a SLN BC or two, she's either got something like MK-16Gs or she's running out of missiles.

RFC stated she is not Havenite and the DD is not a Roland. So, an older RMN DD but obviously armed with better warheads than Honor's Fearless in OBS. Those warheads Fearless fired didn't have the punch to take out the PRN Q ship before almost using up her entire forward magazine.
RFC heavily implied she's not a Havenite (but "hope you won't be too disappointed if she's not" isn't exactly saying she's not; still that the likely way to bet.
But I don't see anywhere where he said the DD wasn't a Roland. I missed his saying anything about the ship class other than it's a destroyer captain...
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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:52 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
PeterZ wrote:RFC stated she is not Havenite and the DD is not a Roland. So, an older RMN DD but obviously armed with better warheads than Honor's Fearless in OBS. Those warheads Fearless fired didn't have the punch to take out the PRN Q ship before almost using up her entire forward magazine.
RFC heavily implied she's not a Havenite (but "hope you won't be too disappointed if she's not" isn't exactly saying she's not; still that the likely way to bet.
But I don't see anywhere where he said the DD wasn't a Roland. I missed his saying anything about the ship class other than it's a destroyer captain...

Yeah, I inferred not a Roland when he stated no pods. That seems likely to me. Unless the Roland has already used its pods in a previous engagement, I don't see how one would be dispatched without them.

I won't be disappointed of the skipper is a Havenite. The passage reads to me as if she is one after all. The biggest plot factor arguing for her being a Havenite, is to affirm both to the reader and the SL that the RHN are not sidekicks to the RMN superhero, but are themselves heroes out of legend as far as the SLN is concerned.
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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by munroburton   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:08 am

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PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I inferred not a Roland when he stated no pods. That seems likely to me. Unless the Roland has already used its pods in a previous engagement, I don't see how one would be dispatched without them.

I won't be disappointed of the skipper is a Havenite. The passage reads to me as if she is one after all. The biggest plot factor arguing for her being a Havenite, is to affirm both to the reader and the SL that the RHN are not sidekicks to the RMN superhero, but are themselves heroes out of legend as far as the SLN is concerned.


The Rolands dispatched to Saltash had no pods with them.

Supposedly, limpeted pods are only good for a week or so - due to the onboard power being gradually consumed to generate its tractor beam. They use ammo ships to get around this issue a few times.

I would like to argue that the Roland is the one DD class which doesn't need pods. It's got shipboard DDM launchers which have been recently upgraded to fire more powerful payloads and is demonstrably capable of handling multiple Solly BCs with ease. Nothing stops a Roland from launching all of its missiles on delayed activation and throwing maximum stacked salvos, then running for it.
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Re: Uncompromising way out of order snippet for Rose
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:18 am

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munroburton wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Yeah, I inferred not a Roland when he stated no pods. That seems likely to me. Unless the Roland has already used its pods in a previous engagement, I don't see how one would be dispatched without them.

I won't be disappointed of the skipper is a Havenite. The passage reads to me as if she is one after all. The biggest plot factor arguing for her being a Havenite, is to affirm both to the reader and the SL that the RHN are not sidekicks to the RMN superhero, but are themselves heroes out of legend as far as the SLN is concerned.


The Rolands dispatched to Saltash had no pods with them.

Supposedly, limpeted pods are only good for a week or so - due to the onboard power being gradually consumed to generate its tractor beam. They use ammo ships to get around this issue a few times.

I would like to argue that the Roland is the one DD class which doesn't need pods. It's got shipboard DDM launchers which have been recently upgraded to fire more powerful payloads and is demonstrably capable of handling multiple Solly BCs with ease. Nothing stops a Roland from launching all of its missiles on delayed activation and throwing maximum stacked salvos, then running for it.

I suppose my focus was on their limited magazine size and the likelihood of meeting large numbers of SLN units. Pods seemed necessary. Thanks for the bit on limpeted pods. Didn't know about that constraint.
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