Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #2

kzt wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:All reasonable and cogently argued. I will say, however, that the Sollies come up with a few little surprises of their own. There's a scene in which Sonja and Shannon are discussing probable Solly responses to their war-fighting inferiority and both of them comment on the fact that there's nothing wrong with the League's general technology . . . which suggests that the Sollies are beginning from a better starting point vis-a-vis the GA than the PRH vis-a-vis the SKM. Now, I would argue (but, hey, what do I know?) that the Peeps had a much more realistic awareness of their problems and dug in a heck of a lot sooner, but that doesn't change the fact that the League has a lot of technological knowledge if it ever gets itself organizations ized to start using it.

They have sufficient industrial, financial and technological resources that a tiny fraction of the league getting organized could be a real problem.

The League doesn't have enough time to develop and build weapons to defeat the GA head on. Their cash flows will be drastically reduced very soon now. By the time they communicate to systems willing to materially support the federal government, Honor will be orbiting Sol. I can see the private sector reprogramming tac comps to manage the greater capabilities of the GA missiles. I can see software upgrades to improve sensors and EW from current hardware. All these make the SLN platforms more survivable. That won't be saying those ships can defeat the GA vessels, only that the GA vessels will have to expend more resources to defeat any upgraded SLN unit.

20 years down the road? Yeah, the Old Core SL worlds that want to hold a grudge will be nasty enemies. Any time soon? The quicker the SL surrenders the less proof will exist for just how outclassed they are. Everything will be speculation and PR hacks can begin to shape an alternative narrative. If the SLN is pushed to fight, there will be more stories of staggeringly out numbered GA units either defeating their pathetic SLN opponents than can be discarded as SEM propaganda. In such circumstances the influence of the federal government completely evaporates, rather than is simply severely diminished.

If the SL gives up quickly, they may consolidate a significant rump state successor. They may actually manage to keep some clients in the Protectorates. If the SL fights, the resulting successors will be much smaller. The GA will make sure ALL Verge and Protectorate systems are independent.

PeterZ wrote:If the SLN FF sends out 80-90 ship task forces for case Buccaneer and one such task force is sent to Hypatia to quell a secession plebiscite on its way to the protectorates, that could be what the lone DD runs into. In this case, the DD might be stationed at Hypatia because of the expected plebiscite just in case the SLN responds.

If that's the purpose of the TF, then those ships will be some combination of BCs, CLs, CAs, DDs and support ships. So, we have 5-6 ammo colliers 1-2 repair ships. That suggests 3-4 squadrons of BCs, 1-2 squadrons of CAs and 4 squadrons of CLs and DDs.

Assuming the DD gets a mission kill from every 10 missiles on the SLN BCs should they approach in penny packets, a single Roland with tea tractored pods can successfully snipe all the BCs. If they send the CAs, CLs and DDs, the odds improve for the Roland. Let's grant 2CAs and 3 CLs and DDs for every 10 missiles. Under those conditions, the Roland can snipe everything short of the BCs and still have enough missiles for half to 2/3 of the BCs. This assumes that the new materials for armour hasn't been retrofitted in the SLN and only the new build ships have them. Those materials were introduced in the RMN at the beginning of the first Havenite war, after all.

Even if the Roland dies trying to take out the remaining 8-10 BCs, Hypatia will know the SLN is doomed. The SLN officers who read this report will look at any armed GA ship with undiluted terror. Honor's conversation with Kingsford will end the Solarian League with that anecdote to put the disparity in fighting capability in context.

Oftentitmes it's like pulling teeth. But eventually they get there, always with some sob story about damaged nodes...

cthia wrote:So is this the force headed to Hypatia, or will this force do the dirty to Beowulf? Beowulf shouldn't be heavily defended, in their minds.

The implication is a brain level a cut above Crandall's, so no shit for brains. Yet, it's starting out in a system named Dzung? If the z is silent then "Operation Buccaneer" was conceived on toilet paper and is going to end up in the crapper, but fast.

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:If the SLN FF sends out 80-90 ship task forces for case Buccaneer and one such task force is sent to Hypatia to quell a secession plebiscite on its way to the protectorates, that could be what the lone DD runs into. In this case, the DD might be stationed at Hypatia because of the expected plebiscite just in case the SLN responds.

If that's the purpose of the TF, then those ships will be some combination of BCs, CLs, CAs, DDs and support ships. So, we have 5-6 ammo colliers 1-2 repair ships. That suggests 3-4 squadrons of BCs, 1-2 squadrons of CAs and 4 squadrons of CLs and DDs.

Assuming the DD gets a mission kill from every 10 missiles on the SLN BCs should they approach in penny packets, a single Roland with tea tractored pods can successfully snipe all the BCs. If they send the CAs, CLs and DDs, the odds improve for the Roland. Let's grant 2CAs and 3 CLs and DDs for every 10 missiles. Under those conditions, the Roland can snipe everything short of the BCs and still have enough missiles for half to 2/3 of the BCs. This assumes that the new materials for armour hasn't been retrofitted in the SLN and only the new build ships have them. Those materials were introduced in the RMN at the beginning of the first Havenite war, after all.

Even if the Roland dies trying to take out the remaining 8-10 BCs, Hypatia will know the SLN is doomed. The SLN officers who read this report will look at any armed GA ship with undiluted terror. Honor's conversation with Kingsford will end the Solarian League with that anecdote to put the disparity in fighting capability in context.

Oftentitmes it's like pulling teeth. But eventually they get there, always with some sob story about damaged nodes...

cthia wrote:So is this the force headed to Hypatia, or will this force do the dirty to Beowulf? Beowulf shouldn't be heavily defended, in their minds.

The implication is a brain level a cut above Crandall's, so no shit for brains. Yet, it's starting out in a system named Dzung? If the z is silent then "Operation Buccaneer" was conceived on toilet paper and is going to end up in the crapper, but fast.

Operation Buccaneer is a good idea, if the SL had the time, financial resources and political stability to survive the initial GA offensive. They don't, but do not recognize that yet.

The financial dislocation due to the severed communications for financial transfers alone will temporarily cripple both the federal government and local member systems. Add in the loss of control of the Protecorate's fees and the federal government can't fund even good ideas.

Textev bears mention of Beowulf's neighbors. Until Beowulf formally secedes from the League, Beowulf is technically still in Solarian space. As are Beowulf's neighbors. It seems reasonable that at least a small contingent of force was dispatched to gather intelligence while stationed near Beowulf — whose sole orders are simply "Observe. DO NOT engage." They are the eyes and ears on the sneaky barbarians, as it were.

It would be a system with a planet -- one of Beowulf's neighbors -- who for some reason has some sort of intimate history with the League. Need a scenario? Perhaps it was a planet that single-handedly assisted the League in battling the arachnids! That history initiated a bonding forged in the heat of battle. shrugs A true friend of the League's. It would seem that that would be SOP for any nation with the resources. And that system would be a natural base for the SLN. A familiar stop.

Also having dealings with Beowulf, it seems highly likely that a RMN force and a SLN force will meet each other en passant.

En passant happens quite a bit on the chess board — and in real life here on Earth. Planes are getting shot down all the time.

En passing.

cthia wrote: Perhaps it was a planet that single-handedly assisted the League in battling the arachnids! That history initiated a bonding forged in the heat of battle. shrugs

That is not only not right; it is not even wrong.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote: Perhaps it was a planet that single-handedly assisted the League in battling the arachnids! That history initiated a bonding forged in the heat of battle. shrugs

That is not only not right; it is not even wrong.

I absolutely could not resist it. LOL

.

Direwolf18 wrote:This appears to be part of the "commerce raiding" force that Admiral Kingsford was suggesting. Its not a bad idea, if the Manticorian light units hadn't proven they can take out SLN heavies. That being said I have trouble thinking of any good ideas the SLN can do at this point.

The real problem is that even if a Sollie fleet has real numerical superiority in many places, it will still get shot up.

And the Grand Alliance is far smaller and controls wormholes. That limits a real lot of movement. Hit a planet or two and your course might be clear. There could be a task force using the junction that is waiting for you.

Its not that the Sollies can't do anything to counter the GA technical strengths, the developed tactics and the (often decades) of true combat experience, it is that they are being forced to improvise and see what works. Sending 80-90 BC sized warships to someplace that seems to have also been provided with a smaller RMN contingent should give them a victory even if it means leaving out the part about how many ships they loose plus crew.
Of course, the GA isn't invincible and stuff is going to happen. A few ships get mousetraped, people get caught in situations they can't get out of, the other side does things that are compleatly unexpected (even if it costs them big time) and they have victories.

I seem to recall a story about some people in the US Navy mounting torpedoes on a PBY to make it an anti-ship weapon. They did use PBYs with depth charges against subs but the story was in the Pacific and was against a warship. The British "mined" an approch road to London against the expected invasion early in the war by doing things like rigging a house on a slope of a hill to be detonated and cover the road (and expected tanks) with gasoline.

Sending an SLN task group into a system and dumping a lot of missles on ballistic course to both intersect with anticipated movements of locally stationed GA warships AND any orbital service and opeations facilities (including space stations) would give them a "win" if the objective is to destroy things. They might even catch a defending ship that way or with missles dropped behind in the path of pursuit as in Shadow of Victory.

SLN WILL come up with things. How effective after the 1st try is another matter. Part of the backstory in Babalon 5 was that Sheriden killed a Mimbari Crusier by deploying nuclear weapons as mines and based the trap on the Mimbari vastly superior ability to come out of hyperspace with essentialy pinpoint accuracy so they popped in on the Earth Alliance ship when it began to move....right into the mines. The Mimbari considered that a dishonorable trick but .....well, it was war and we are human:)

It will be interesting to see what individual SLN people come up with.

Brigade XO wrote:SLN WILL come up with things. How effective after the 1st try is another matter. Part of the backstory in Babalon 5 was that Sheriden killed a Mimbari Crusier by deploying nuclear weapons as mines and based the trap on the Mimbari vastly superior ability to come out of hyperspace with essentialy pinpoint accuracy so they popped in on the Earth Alliance ship when it began to move....right into the mines. The Mimbari considered that a dishonorable trick but .....well, it was war and we are human:)

It will be interesting to see what individual SLN people come up with.

Ah, come on. If you know Babylon 5, you should know the Minbari had Earth's balls firmly gripped despite Sheridan's fluke. The cruiser he killed was the only Minbari capital ship EarthForce managed to kill during that entire war. Earth only survived because the Minbari surrendered at the threshold of total victory.

Whilst a similar outcome is what the SL needs right now, I doubt the GA will surrender because it turns out the Sollies are humans too!

Brigade XO wrote:Of course, the GA isn't invincible and stuff is going to happen. A few ships get mousetraped, people get caught in situations they can't get out of, the other side does things that are compleatly unexpected (even if it costs them big time) and they have victories.
...
It will be interesting to see what individual SLN people come up with.

The scenario that resulted in Helen Zilwiki's PMV is a definite possibility. (ambush in a grav wave where missiles and LACs can't be used.)

Any effective response almost has to be individual initiative rather than general tactical plan.