Uncompromising Honor, snippet #1

Theemile wrote:2) IEWPs (Independent Energy Weapons Platforms) are not a new thing in the Honorverse. Honor used one that was part of the defenses at Hades to destroy a BC and mangle the Farnesse. I had thought they were part of the junction defenses, but they are not mentioned in OBS.

So why are they being discussed like they are a new idea? The only thing offered here is a BETTER IEWP than Manticore could produce before.

Or at least better than Manticore bothered to produce before. (Though Honor's response in the snippet could be read that "In this case though" Foraker's idea wasn't really out of the box.

Anyway the ones around Hades are described in IEH as "laser buoys designed to shoot LACs and starships [...] seeded with more sophisticated and modern energy platforms for good measure" - but the description in EoH is a little clearer about those 'modern energy platforms' - "eight remote graser platforms opened fire simultaneously. All eight scored direct hits, and beams that could have ripped through unprotected battle steel at three-quarters of a million kilometers smashed into her from less than two thousand."

Though I thought, against targets not protected by sidewall, that a graser had an effective range of a million km against the same class of ship. So that might be a hint that those 'modern energy platforms' used something more like a CA weight graser; rather than a BC (much less SD) one.

Still you wouldn't think it would take much design skill to scale up to a bigger graser, if you thought it was cost effective. Maybe that's why nobody every really did it before - it doesn't make sense to waste something as expensive as a capital ship graser on an ultimately expendable remote energy platform. Unless you got thousands of the things for free and no other use for them [G]


Though it's not clear to me if these modern energy platforms also mount serious sidewalls or if they expect stealth and numbers to keep them from getting shredded by counter fire. (Forts if you keep them back over 500,000 km should have an immune zone against transiting enemies - too far for the enemy's energy weapons to pierce the fort's sidewalls, but close enough that grasers fired back against enemies who can't have wedges or sidewalls are still brutally effective)


Also I like your idea that this might be step one towards figuring out a graser drone / torp of their own. Mistletoe on steroids.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:2) IEWPs (Independent Energy Weapons Platforms) are not a new thing in the Honorverse. Honor used one that was part of the defenses at Hades to destroy a BC and mangle the Farnesse. I had thought they were part of the junction defenses, but they are not mentioned in OBS.

So why are they being discussed like they are a new idea? The only thing offered here is a BETTER IEWP than Manticore could produce before.

Or at least better than Manticore bothered to produce before. (Though Honor's response in the snippet could be read that "In this case though" Foraker's idea wasn't really out of the box.

Anyway the ones around Hades are described in IEH as "laser buoys designed to shoot LACs and starships [...] seeded with more sophisticated and modern energy platforms for good measure" - but the description in EoH is a little clearer about those 'modern energy platforms' - "eight remote graser platforms opened fire simultaneously. All eight scored direct hits, and beams that could have ripped through unprotected battle steel at three-quarters of a million kilometers smashed into her from less than two thousand."

Though I thought, against targets not protected by sidewall, that a graser had an effective range of a million km against the same class of ship. So that might be a hint that those 'modern energy platforms' used something more like a CA weight graser; rather than a BC (much less SD) one.

Still you wouldn't think it would take much design skill to scale up to a bigger graser, if you thought it was cost effective. Maybe that's why nobody every really did it before - it doesn't make sense to waste something as expensive as a capital ship graser on an ultimately expendable remote energy platform. Unless you got thousands of the things for free and no other use for them [G]


Though it's not clear to me if these modern energy platforms also mount serious sidewalls or if they expect stealth and numbers to keep them from getting shredded by counter fire. (Forts if you keep them back over 500,000 km should have an immune zone against transiting enemies - too far for the enemy's energy weapons to pierce the fort's sidewalls, but close enough that grasers fired back against enemies who can't have wedges or sidewalls are still brutally effective)


Also I like your idea that this might be step one towards figuring out a graser drone / torp of their own. Mistletoe on steroids.

And the "out of the box" could be a snide reference to what no one else could figure out -- especially all of us in the forum (we're being teased by RFC) -- an actual use for the captured Solly tech. LOL

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:2) IEWPs (Independent Energy Weapons Platforms) are not a new thing in the Honorverse. Honor used one that was part of the defenses at Hades to destroy a BC and mangle the Farnesse. I had thought they were part of the junction defenses, but they are not mentioned in OBS.

So why are they being discussed like they are a new idea? The only thing offered here is a BETTER IEWP than Manticore could produce before.

Or at least better than Manticore bothered to produce before. (Though Honor's response in the snippet could be read that "In this case though" Foraker's idea wasn't really out of the box.

Anyway the ones around Hades are described in IEH as "laser buoys designed to shoot LACs and starships [...] seeded with more sophisticated and modern energy platforms for good measure" - but the description in EoH is a little clearer about those 'modern energy platforms' - "eight remote graser platforms opened fire simultaneously. All eight scored direct hits, and beams that could have ripped through unprotected battle steel at three-quarters of a million kilometers smashed into her from less than two thousand."

Though I thought, against targets not protected by sidewall, that a graser had an effective range of a million km against the same class of ship. So that might be a hint that those 'modern energy platforms' used something more like a CA weight graser; rather than a BC (much less SD) one.

Still you wouldn't think it would take much design skill to scale up to a bigger graser, if you thought it was cost effective. Maybe that's why nobody every really did it before - it doesn't make sense to waste something as expensive as a capital ship graser on an ultimately expendable remote energy platform. Unless you got thousands of the things for free and no other use for them [G]


Though it's not clear to me if these modern energy platforms also mount serious sidewalls or if they expect stealth and numbers to keep them from getting shredded by counter fire. (Forts if you keep them back over 500,000 km should have an immune zone against transiting enemies - too far for the enemy's energy weapons to pierce the fort's sidewalls, but close enough that grasers fired back against enemies who can't have wedges or sidewalls are still brutally effective)


Also I like your idea that this might be step one towards figuring out a graser drone / torp of their own. Mistletoe on steroids.

But no one else would have thought it was worth it if all else remains equal -- like still getting one shot before empty. Shannon upped the ante on the "magazine capacity" as well. It's a dynamic duo of a breakthrough. It's no longer a Derringer.

cthia wrote:
But no one else would have thought it was worth it if all else remains equal -- like still getting one shot before empty. Shannon upped the ante on the "magazine capacity" as well. It's a dynamic duo of a breakthrough. It's no longer a Derringer.

Bomb pumped lasers were the one shot wonders; IEWPs always had their own power system for multiple shots. Once again, nothing new...

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:
But no one else would have thought it was worth it if all else remains equal -- like still getting one shot before empty. Shannon upped the ante on the "magazine capacity" as well. It's a dynamic duo of a breakthrough. It's no longer a Derringer.

Bomb pumped lasers were the one shot wonders; IEWPs always had their own power system for multiple shots. Once again, nothing new...

One thing not clear is what their cyclic rate was (could they even burst fire or did the capacitors have to charge from beamed power between each shot? How long did they take to recharge?)

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:
But no one else would have thought it was worth it if all else remains equal -- like still getting one shot before empty. Shannon upped the ante on the "magazine capacity" as well. It's a dynamic duo of a breakthrough. It's no longer a Derringer.

Bomb pumped lasers were the one shot wonders; IEWPs always had their own power system for multiple shots. Once again, nothing new...

Standard IDEWPs were multi-shot only in the sense that they weren't destroyed when they took their first (and only) shot. That is, they could be recharged --- over time --- and used again in subsequent engagements. The best platform out there that didn't use beamed power was good for maybe two shots per engagement and was in the CA/BC range.

Neither Honor nor Phil Clayton are astonished by the sheer power of the Sollies' grasers. They are impressed by them more in comparison to their crappy missiles than in comparison to other people's energy weapons. Clayton is surveying the wrecks not to discover what their tech is (he already knows that, within fairly tight parameters) but to determine the order in which they might best be salvaged (which are worst damaged; which have missiles on board which need to be offloaded first, which are more obsolescent than others, etc.) He's simply commenting to his wife that the grasers he's seeing onboard the ships are even nicer pieces of hardware now that he's a chance to see them up close and personal.

Shannon Foraker is "thinking outside the box" (a) in re-purposing tech that would otherwise simply be scrapped; (b) finding a way to use weapons which are now of limited utility (broadside graser mounts) where they may actually be useful; (c) upping the number of shots per weapon per engagement significantly; (d) incorporating them into a much more sophisticated fire control and distribution system in much denser numbers; and (e) making her proposal before anyone's sent her detailed specs on the captured weapons (not that she needed them, anymore than Capt. Clayton or Honor) because she already knew they were powerful weapons which couldbe highly effective over their designed range if they could be brought into that range. And, BTW, what she was proposing was just about the only way they could be brought into effective range in an era of MDMs.

I believe all of the above probably constitutes sufficient reason for Honor to reflect that she is thinking outside the box.

runsforcelery wrote: And, BTW, what she was proposing was just about the only way they could be brought into effective range in an era of MDMs.

Assuming someone doesn't decide to have their LACs repeat the final act of Home Fleet, where the LACs got blown to shreds by SD grasers while inflicting effectively no damage on the SDs.

runsforcelery wrote:
Standard IDEWPs were multi-shot only in the sense that they weren't destroyed when they took their first (and only) shot. That is, they could be recharged --- over time --- and used again in subsequent engagements. The best platform out there that didn't use beamed power was good for maybe two shots per engagement and was in the CA/BC range.

Neither Honor nor Phil Clayton are astonished by the sheer power of the Sollies' grasers. They are impressed by them more in comparison to their crappy missiles than in comparison to other people's energy weapons. Clayton is surveying the wrecks not to discover what their tech is (he already knows that, within fairly tight parameters) but to determine the order in which they might best be salvaged (which are worst damaged; which have missiles on board which need to be offloaded first, which are more obsolescent than others, etc.) He's simply commenting to his wife that the grasers he's seeing onboard the ships are even nicer pieces of hardware now that he's a chance to see them up close and personal.

Shannon Foraker is "thinking outside the box" (a) in re-purposing tech that would otherwise simply be scrapped; (b) finding a way to use weapons which are now of limited utility (broadside graser mounts) where they may actually be useful; (c) upping the number of shots per weapon per engagement significantly; (d) incorporating them into a much more sophisticated fire control and distribution system in much denser numbers; and (e) making her proposal before anyone's sent her detailed specs on the captured weapons (not that she needed them, anymore than Capt. Clayton or Honor) because she already knew they were powerful weapons which couldbe highly effective over their designed range if they could be brought into that range. And, BTW, what she was proposing was just about the only way they could be brought into effective range in an era of MDMs.

I believe all of the above probably constitutes sufficient reason for Honor to reflect that she is thinking outside the box.

Thank you David, that was more explanation than I expected (or probably deserved) <rant=off>

Theemile wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
Standard IDEWPs were multi-shot only in the sense that they weren't destroyed when they took their first (and only) shot. That is, they could be recharged --- over time --- and used again in subsequent engagements. The best platform out there that didn't use beamed power was good for maybe two shots per engagement and was in the CA/BC range.

Neither Honor nor Phil Clayton are astonished by the sheer power of the Sollies' grasers. They are impressed by them more in comparison to their crappy missiles than in comparison to other people's energy weapons. Clayton is surveying the wrecks not to discover what their tech is (he already knows that, within fairly tight parameters) but to determine the order in which they might best be salvaged (which are worst damaged; which have missiles on board which need to be offloaded first, which are more obsolescent than others, etc.) He's simply commenting to his wife that the grasers he's seeing onboard the ships are even nicer pieces of hardware now that he's a chance to see them up close and personal.

Shannon Foraker is "thinking outside the box" (a) in re-purposing tech that would otherwise simply be scrapped; (b) finding a way to use weapons which are now of limited utility (broadside graser mounts) where they may actually be useful; (c) upping the number of shots per weapon per engagement significantly; (d) incorporating them into a much more sophisticated fire control and distribution system in much denser numbers; and (e) making her proposal before anyone's sent her detailed specs on the captured weapons (not that she needed them, anymore than Capt. Clayton or Honor) because she already knew they were powerful weapons which couldbe highly effective over their designed range if they could be brought into that range. And, BTW, what she was proposing was just about the only way they could be brought into effective range in an era of MDMs.

I believe all of the above probably constitutes sufficient reason for Honor to reflect that she is thinking outside the box.

Thank you David, that was more explanation than I expected (or probably deserved) <rant=off>

Let me validate one more detail. The SLN grasers in question, are 1) not necessarily a better tech fielded by the RMN, 2) not necessarily any larger than an average SD Graser the RMN has fielded. They are just nice, consistent (say...) 450cm grasers, mounted in massive numbers on a massive number of ships.

Not blow your mind impressive, but a "that's nice" kind of impressed, especially when you see the spreadsheet tally...

Theemile wrote:Let me validate one more detail. The SLN grasers in question, are 1) not necessarily a better tech fielded by the RMN, 2) not necessarily any larger than an average SD Graser the RMN has fielded. They are just nice, consistent (say...) 450cm grasers, mounted in massive numbers on a massive number of ships.

Not blow your mind impressive, but a "that's nice" kind of impressed, especially when you see the spreadsheet tally...

Last I checked, cleanly removing these sorts of systems from an SD requires certain facilities that are currently not terrible available in the Manticore system. So I'm sort of wondering who is going to do this.