How big could a star nation get and still function?

The Solarian League clearly does not function, but the newly (re)formed Republic of Haven (despite the headache that is dealing corrupt fools like Younger) seems to be more or less stable and functional compared to the PRH. It makes me wonder, taking into consideration the obvious limitations of communication and transportation in this universe, and also taking into consideration the possible widespread adoption of the Streak Drive in the future, how big could a nation get before it's stretched to it's limits and can't effectively govern it's territories.

Rednek731 wrote:The Solarian League clearly does not function, but the newly (re)formed Republic of Haven (despite the headache that is dealing corrupt fools like Younger) seems to be more or less stable and functional compared to the PRH. It makes me wonder, taking into consideration the obvious limitations of communication and transportation in this universe, and also taking into consideration the possible widespread adoption of the Streak Drive in the future, how big could a nation get before it's stretched to it's limits and can't effectively govern it's territories.

How large was the Roman Empire or the Mongol Empire? How long did it take for messages to get from the capital to the the far corners and vice versa? How long did communication take between India and London in 1700? That's the historical models for how large they can be.

But you cannot run a modern centralized nation-state like that. The people running the far corners need to be able to act decisively when required without waiting for permission from HQ and also feel confident that the central government will support them as long as they don't go totally off the rails.

This really becomes a question of decentralized governing and how much people trust their government. What works in star systems A-G is not likely to work in H-M, and so on. Additionally whoever/whatever the method of central government is, it needs to trust it's governing body and give it both sufficient authority and sufficient responsibility to handle whatever happens in it's area.

Haven is probable at the limits of what one centralized body can control. I say this because it has been repeatedly explained in the series that everything in the RoH flows from Haven. If you control Haven, you control the republic. That sort of centralized control requires faster communications. Granted the streak drive may improve the RoH's ability to handle a larger size.

Manticore, by contrast, can sprawl all over the place because it is not centralized control. Yes, the queen is nominally in charge and the parliament is in control of the government, however the governors of each planet and region have very broad powers to modify their local laws and to handle problems.

I'm not saying a monarchy is the only way to have a large, far flung nation, only that they've found a method which works.

What it comes down to is having the right people in the right places, I guess. People who are able to honestly assess the local conditions, make sound judgements and work with the people they are supposed to serve. Coupled with this, whatever the central controlling body is, they cannot get too wrapped up in amassing power and playing the game that they stop representing the area they come from.

In this case it's not really a question of how big it can get. Communication lag is a fact of life in any star spanning government so people would accept this, so long as their local government was properly empowered to handle things.

The government could be, effectively, the entire galaxy, as long as every one agreed on the general frame work, allowing for local deviations. Obviously we can't get that to happen. We can't get people to agree on what to have for breakfast once the number gets too large. As the political body gets larger you're going to have more and more special interests, local conditions and so forth that require different policies. This will create levels of resentment in surrounding areas until eventually the resentment spills over.

If you can keep the government bereft of corruption, I think the sky is the limit. The Queen heads a system of people she can trust. But then, the standard of living, afforded by the MWJ, may curb the general appetite or need to succumb to corruption.

And the centralized government, being bereft of corruption, is a government that cares about its subjects on the fringes of its territory as well as the core. Or the wheels come off.

Spread it around or it all falls down.

Rednek731 wrote:...and also taking into consideration the possible widespread adoption of the Streak Drive in the future, how big could a nation get before it's stretched to it's limits and can't effectively govern it's territories.

A recent comment in another thread pointed out that every large star nation was roughly 100LY or less in diameter.

That seems a reasonable radius for a star nation without streak drive couriers; it was proposed that the Streak Drive would extend that distance to 150LY, or so. That distance discounts the distance covered by wormhole bridges, so Basalisk to Pequod, Scarlet or Nuncio, (on the far side of the Talbott Quadrant,) is only 100 LY and not the nearly 900 LY it would be without the MWHJ.

In the case of the SEM and Talbott Quadrant, there is the regional Parliament as well as the Imperial Parliament. That eases the communications lag for local or routine administration. Only issues relevant to the Empire go back and forth to Manticore.

Both the SEM and restored Republic of Haven are fairly new at being large star nations. Haven has at least the experience of occupying a large number of systems with the attendant communications woes. They aren't terribly practiced at dealing with member states instead of conquered subjects, though.

We really don't know all that much about the Anderman Empire, but they would seem to be the model to work from when determining limits. They have been relatively stable and efficient as an empire, as far as we know.

Weird Harold wrote:

Rednek731 wrote:...and also taking into consideration the possible widespread adoption of the Streak Drive in the future, how big could a nation get before it's stretched to it's limits and can't effectively govern it's territories.

A recent comment in another thread pointed out that every large star nation was roughly 100LY or less in diameter.

That seems a reasonable radius for a star nation without streak drive couriers; it was proposed that the Streak Drive would extend that distance to 150LY, or so. That distance discounts the distance covered by wormhole bridges, so Basalisk to Pequod, Scarlet or Nuncio, (on the far side of the Talbott Quadrant,) is only 100 LY and not the nearly 900 LY it would be without the MWHJ.

In the case of the SEM and Talbott Quadrant, there is the regional Parliament as well as the Imperial Parliament. That eases the communications lag for local or routine administration. Only issues relevant to the Empire go back and forth to Manticore.

Both the SEM and restored Republic of Haven are fairly new at being large star nations. Haven has at least the experience of occupying a large number of systems with the attendant communications woes. They aren't terribly practiced at dealing with member states instead of conquered subjects, though.

We really don't know all that much about the Anderman Empire, but they would seem to be the model to work from when determining limits. They have been relatively stable and efficient as an empire, as far as we know.

The problem with centralized rule is that each planet will essentially go its own way. Even in three planet Manticore there are differences between people from Manticore, Sphynx, and Gryphon. Biological differences for Sphynx. And how much have we heard about Gryphon highlanders?

As a result, when planets in a nation are far apart they will have very different histories and cultures. That's why most governments are fairly limited.

Note the tax system in Manticore. A very simple income tax that could be done on a post card. That tends to favor those not making all that much money and limits the size of government.

The High Ridge government kept the war going to keep taxes up and to prevent an election. But that was not the norm.

The British Empire is a better source for inspiration. Nations were different but there was a central administration that sort of tried to keep them honest.

The League clearly does very little to actively run all the planets. Look at the Mandarins. One for foreign affairs, one for propaganda, one for treasury and one for commerce. Plus the head of the navy. None were actually elected (there was a bit of farce when Kingsford took over but it was meaningless).

Even the League only collected taxes on interstellar trade. All other functions presumably were handled by individual planets. Those self-ruling made decisions. Those run by OFS had few choices.

Even on Earth now, who would want the UN to run America? Or their own countries?

So perhaps with a federation style government (or something similar) the maximum size a star nation without any wormholes could achieve is roughly 150ly in diameter?

Rednek731 wrote:So perhaps with a federation style government (or something similar) the maximum size a star nation without any wormholes could achieve is roughly 150ly in diameter?

After the Streak Drive becomes widespread, yeah. 150 LY is probably stretching things even then, but it is the best guess we can make based on scarce evidence.

What matters is not the size of the nation but the size of its bureaucracy.

Cheers, John

John Prigent wrote:What matters is not the size of the nation but the size of its bureaucracy.

Cheers, John

Too true, there are plenty of tin-pot nations on the planet Earth that don't function.