GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

lyonheart wrote:We're down to around 7-8 monthes or less for UH, and I'm hoping for more definite dates for it and the other books soon.

L

Have I missed hearing something? The last I heard, Been wasn't going to assign a pub date until RFC turned in the manuscript, and then it would be a year out because of their distributor/corporate parent's policies.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:The procedural step is but an issue that might be able to be circumvented by precedence. No one has ever had the gorilla's balls, therefore the gorilla's [C c]onstitution in its hands. Precedence and spirit of the Constitution together are powerful concepts.

I think the example of the "Mayhew Restoration" in Grayson applies here. The Keys argued that centuries of precedence over-ruled the written Constitution; the Courts disagreed with them.

The League is in a similar situation where the Mandarins can claim precedence (or lack of precedence) over-rules the Constitution. Since RFC controls the judiciary in the Honorverse, we can make an educated guess at what the Solarian courts will rule.

My niece spoke to me on my mobile...

"You're sleeping at the wheel uncle. Circumventing procedure in the face of precedence is exactly what Protector Benjamin did to the dismay of the Keys. He had to."

Damn. I told you she is brilliant. I did sleep through that one.

cthia wrote:I have five brilliant sisters. One a corporate lawyer. Hence, it is where I get all of my legal mumbo jumbo from listening to her rant over the years. I'm simply saying that we mustn't get too reliant on the letter of the League's Constitution. What is happening now is all unprecedented. When the League's Constitution was written, no one in their right mind could foresee a navy with the size, much less the balls, to challenge it or wage war against it. Had it seen such a thing ever coming to pass, I'm sure the Constitution would have reflected it. But if the League argues the intent or spirit of the law, they may have a thread to pull at. I'm simply trying to be thorough here, and not be influenced by any preconceived prejudices. After all, I'm a Manty too.

We don't know whether anybody's ever left the League before, but I disagree that they had a universe beating, unchallenged, navy when their constitution was written.

(Oh and in an old infodump David specifically said " Fifth, membership in the League (except for those planets which are essentially captive provinces under OFS rule) is entirely voluntary. There is a specific mechanism for star systems to leave the League, and there is no mechanism for compelling star systems to remain in the League. In fact, compelling star system to remain in the League would represent clear violation of the League constitution (such as it is, and what there is of it).")

The League changed far more radically from it's founding to the present than you seem to be accounting for. It didn't have a Navy at its founding or for centuries afterwards.

725 pd - "the first crude hyper drive was tested in the Solar System." [MtH]
Best hyper speed just 50c [MtH:Appendix] - Ships would use hydrogen catcher fields to build up to no more than 0.23c (or often less) in normal space then pop into hyper and climb into the Beta bands retaining just 827 kps - and apparently could use onboard fuel (hydrogen catchers don't work in hyper) to build up to about 19,543 kps (0.06c).

925 PD - Solarian League Founded

1246 PD Impeller Drive Invented
1273 PD Grav Sail/Alpha nodes invented; Prior to this Dr. Warshawski had invented the first grav sensor with the useful range to look for grav waves (probably no more than 40 years prior; just base on pre-prolong lifespans)

[17xx PD] Correction: 16th centure; before 1523 PD Gustav Anderman founds the Andermani Empire

So when the league was founded and it's Constitution written, and for 2.5 centuries after, the only ships going through hyper were highly paid (and often lost) mail packets and survey ships. Tiny payloads (mostly supplies for the small crew) wrapped around huge fuel tanks, hydrogen catcher fields, and a hyper generator. There were no interstellar warships - basically no navy at all! (Possibly some armed police / coast guard type ship for out-system law enforcement; but that'd be it)


David even mentioned at a con when talking about the (eventual) Companion Book (like House of Steel) that will cover the Andermandi, that at the time of the founding of Gustov's empire (16th century PD), some 800 [correction: 600] years after it was founded it was only just transitioning from hiring military contractors (like Gustov's mercenary fleet) when it needed naval force to it's own internal navy. Gustov was apparently heavily involved in the design of the first battleships and the League agreed to let him go far far away with the first few to found his Empire if he built them the next few to form the nucleus of their standing Navy.

The only way the proto-League might be unable to foresee a navy with the size, much less the balls, to challenge it or wage war against it is that at the time hyper capable warships were effectively impossible.


I can appreciate you posing hypotheticals and counterfactuals to try to get a discussion going - but in this case what evidence we have seems pretty much against you.

All that said, the Mandarins have become very comfortable with ignoring the Constitution in favor of accepted practice. And it seems that they are sticking with that, or even doubling down on it, in the face of Beowulf's plan to leave the league. This despite RFC clearly saying that opposing that is blatantly unconstitutional.

However in the end the law is what force can make it and/or what people will accept. The question is what does the rest of the League do in the fact of blatantly unconstitutional behavior against one of the founding members. If a majority acquiesces, even quietly to it, it doesn't matter much was some Solarian court might rule unless the SLN will listen to them over the orders coming from their chain of command.

But if a majority sees this as the straw that broke the camels back and stop listening to the Mandarins then it's a totally different thing. But that is more a mater of public opinion than strict legal debate. If the public (and military) decide they don't care what some court says then the Mandarins can ignore the constitution all they like. If the public and military do care then the Mandarin's days are very numbered.

zyffyr wrote:

cthia wrote:This is also an area of contention that I already tried to breach with my post admonishing Beowulf with possibly putting the cart before the horse since they are basing their right or cause to secede on the League's illegal and aggressive actions, which seems to constitute a conflict of interest and a bit premature, as I penned before.

Which is all about why I included the definition of plebiscite. Not because I was challenging anyone's intellect, but to point out that in no way does a plebiscite indict the League. It seems that the address of the plebiscite should be...

"We have convened to determine if we shall secede, if and when, it is ascertained whether the League is unilaterally acting without benefit of adhering to their Constitution."

You are rather incorrect. They are basing their right on the explicit permission in the SL Constitution, not on the legality of the Mandarin's actions. The actions leading to the vote do not in any way affect the legality. They could do it for any reason at all - "We just decided that the SL flag is an offensive color, so we are leaving" would be technically valid, though unlikely to actually get enough votes.

As such, your proposed alteration is absolutely unnecessary.

I agree that based on what we've been told of the right Beowulf (of any other full League member) could hold a plebiscite whenever they wanted, or heck at regular intervals, the see if the majority of their population wanted to remain in the League.

However unless there's a perception among the voters (not proof, simply a perception -- even if it's wrong) that the League is acting illegally it seems unlikely that a sufficient number will vote in favor of leaving.


BTW here's a bit more about the internal independence of the League members

More than Honor wrote:Composed of the oldest colony worlds, the Solarian League extends for roughly ninety-eight light-years from the Solar System. Old Earth is the League's capital but is only first among equals, as her daughter colonies had enjoyed centuries (in some cases over a millennium) of independence from the mother world and were unwilling to surrender their sovereignty when the new star nation emerged.
As a result, every member world of the Solarian League exercises full local autonomy. That is, the League's Executive Council, its highest governing body, has no legal authority over the local policies of its member worlds.

[sorry for the stream of replies posts - I've been catching up with this fast moving thread after a weekend away]

Hi guys,

cthia, I don't think MAlign assassins are in the Mandarins' near futures, because they're already doing exactly what the MAlign wants, since all but Kolokoltsov [since we can read his mind] could be MAlign "agents of influence" or shills from their own words, which so far is all we have to indite them.

Granted the MAlign will clean up any loose ends at the appropriate time, the way it literally disappeared Descroix, which may include Kolokoltsov, to keep him from putting all the pieces together, which he could easily do, once he realizes or faces a few facts; but that is still beyond the horizon, at least until UH next spring...

I've tried before to have the forum choose, recognise, or vote for who are the most likely MAlign stooges or agents among the mandarins; Kolokoltsov isn't even though he takes Manpower etc bribes, mainly since those are just the background perks of the job, rather than actively pushing MAlign objectives, my definition for the agents or shills.

Malachai Abruzzi of E&I, could be an agent from what we know but he could also be like Kolokoltsov, or strongly influenced by a MAlign agent on his staff, which we have not seen for Innokentiy.

Nathan MacArtney, of the Interior, is probably a stooge, generally too stupid to need to be an agent, but occasionally showing surprising insight, NTM serious concern, so he might be a genuine patsy.

Omosupe Quartermain, of Commerce, could very well be a MAlign agent herself, or very strongly influenced at the very least given her extremely detailed comments about Simoe, Mesa, etc.

Agata Woodoslawski, of the Treasury, could also easily be a MAlign agent, inserted upon the death of her predecessor, being as arranged as Gweon's; her comments aren't quite as damning as Omosupe's, but close.

Rajampet Rajani, of the SLN, just the next tier down but on a first name basis with the mandarins, we know he was at least a very willing tool of the MAlign, possibly an example or model type for the candidates above; carrying out their orders for oodles of discrete money hidden away, without ever recognizing the obvious clues thanks to his stupid prejudices, but knew too much or might accidentally reveal too much to be left to meet the mandarins to answer for his disastrous decisions the MAlign ordered.

While Winston Kingsford does not appear to be cut from the same cloth, its really too late for him to save the SL, which is why Gweon is all the MAlign needs with him.

Innokentiy is quietly recognized as the most powerful man in the SL or interstellar humanity [IH], so the three primary cited suspects could be there to independently and collectively influence him into carrying out MAlign objectives, which he has throughout the crisis with the SEM.

So I can see the guilty ones fleeing or disappearing at the appropriate moment, leaving Kolokoltsov literally holding the bag, who only then begins to put the pieces together, too late to tell anyone.

KZT, your suggestion could happen, but 'deus ex machina' isn't RFC's style, rather its the 'rifle over the fireplace' that he's obviously foreshadowed.

The marines are smart enough to see the mandarins are still very popular in the Sol system and the core worlds, so the coup marines wouldn't last very long at all.

If their coup comes after the destruction of the BF reserve, where the GA demonstrates to all observers [which it certainly doesn't have to, but might if trying again to save SLN lives etc] that it ain't just longer ranged missiles that make the GA so vastly superior that the SLN is virtually helpless despite their greater numbers, ie their future survival depends more at the whim of the GA CO's than anything they can do themselves to stop GA, which would then be a great motivator for such a coup, but I don't see that is where RFC intends to go either.

I suspect smart FF officers like those we've seen will begin to carve out their own fiefdoms when they see the SL crashing but they will be much more local in scope, ie warlord of only one or a few systems for now, since that's how Gustav Anderman got started; certainly not trying to save or take over the whole SL since its obviously too big, too vastly difficult, NTM not enough time, to ever truly consider such a project.

MunroBurton, given how often RFC is now providing background prequel material, we could see quite a bit of such explanations in the next story arc, then again it may be a really long book to finish off this story arc.

Which would be very nice for us longtime Honor Harrington fans.

This may be overlong, but your thoughts and comments will still be appreciated.

L

cthia wrote:

kzt wrote:quote="munroburton"
The Mandarins' authority is dropping like a rock. I think it's far more likely there will eventually be attempts to remove them. Possibly a Restoration as above, a "Colonels' coup" or most likely in my opinion, Mesan assassins. By then it will be too late and will simply add to the confusion.quote
I could easily see a SL marine led coup that essentially shoots the top 2-3 tiers of the bureaucracy as being hopeless corrupt and puts someone in place who intends to fix things. This would likely not be good for the SEM...

LOL

Something I've suggested eons ago. The Mandarins are indirectly on the Manties side. Mesan assassins targeting the Mandarins would be a plot nicety. Though I rather doubt just one more book could adequately deal with such a plot hand.

Jonathan_S wrote:
<snip>

[17xx PD] Gustav Anderman founds the Andermani Empire

.

The Volsung Mercenaries at Manticore in the Manticore Ascendent series were actually a splinter group of Gustav's mercenary force. If memory serves, we were told athat we will hear more of Gustav in the next book or two in that series. This would place Gustav in the early to mid 1500s pd.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I have five brilliant sisters. One a corporate lawyer. Hence, it is where I get all of my legal mumbo jumbo from listening to her rant over the years. I'm simply saying that we mustn't get too reliant on the letter of the League's Constitution. What is happening now is all unprecedented. When the League's Constitution was written, no one in their right mind could foresee a navy with the size, much less the balls, to challenge it or wage war against it. Had it seen such a thing ever coming to pass, I'm sure the Constitution would have reflected it. But if the League argues the intent or spirit of the law, they may have a thread to pull at. I'm simply trying to be thorough here, and not be influenced by any preconceived prejudices. After all, I'm a Manty too.

We don't know whether anybody's ever left the League before, but I disagree that they had a universe beating, unchallenged, navy when their constitution was written.

(Oh and in an old infodump David specifically said " Fifth, membership in the League (except for those planets which are essentially captive provinces under OFS rule) is entirely voluntary. There is a specific mechanism for star systems to leave the League, and there is no mechanism for compelling star systems to remain in the League. In fact, compelling star system to remain in the League would represent clear violation of the League constitution (such as it is, and what there is of it).")

The League changed far more radically from it's founding to the present than you seem to be accounting for. It didn't have a Navy at its founding or for centuries afterwards.

725 pd - "the first crude hyper drive was tested in the Solar System." [MtH]
Best hyper speed just 50c [MtH:Appendix] - Ships would use hydrogen catcher fields to build up to no more than 0.23c (or often less) in normal space then pop into hyper and climb into the Beta bands retaining just 827 kps - and apparently could use onboard fuel (hydrogen catchers don't work in hyper) to build up to about 19,543 kps (0.06c).

925 PD - Solarian League Founded

1246 PD Impeller Drive Invented
1273 PD Grav Sail/Alpha nodes invented; Prior to this Dr. Warshawski had invented the first grav sensor with the useful range to look for grav waves (probably no more than 40 years prior; just base on pre-prolong lifespans)

[17xx PD] Gustav Anderman founds the Andermani Empire

So when the league was founded and it's Constitution written, and for 2.5 centuries after, the only ships going through hyper were highly paid (and often lost) mail packets and survey ships. Tiny payloads (mostly supplies for the small crew) wrapped around huge fuel tanks, hydrogen catcher fields, and a hyper generator. There were no interstellar warships - basically no navy at all! (Possibly some armed police / coast guard type ship for out-system law enforcement; but that'd be it)


David even mentioned at a con when talking about the (eventual) Companion Book (like House of Steel) that will cover the Andermandi, that at the time of the founding of Gustov's empire (16th century PD), some 800 years after it was founded it was only just transitioning from hiring military contractors (like Gustov's mercenary fleet) when it needed naval force to it's own internal navy. Gustov was apparently heavily involved in the design of the first battleships and the League agreed to let him go far far away with the first few to found his Empire if he built them the next few to form the nucleus of their standing Navy.

The only way the proto-League might be unable to foresee a navy with the size, much less the balls, to challenge it or wage war against it is that at the time hyper capable warships were effectively impossible.


I can appreciate you posing hypotheticals and counterfactuals to try to get a discussion going - but in this case what evidence we have seems pretty much against you.

I don't get it.

Your post also nullifies the need for all of the discussion in every other area up for consideration up to and including the present thread. There would also have been no worry of being attacked by any other navy. There was no Battle Fleet. No OFS. There was no rampant corruption. No worry about an Eridani violation. The Eridani Edict wasn't penned until 1410. There would also be no need to worry about appendages succeeding in the middle of a war. And the appendages certainly didn't have to worry about the League in the manner that they do now.

The Leagues' Constitution has been amended, what, over a hundred times? Heck, was their a League in the Middle Ages? LOL

Obviously, my stance, in trying to entertain this thread and the possible options and legal paths that the League might pursue (again, I'm a Manty too) is obviously pursuant to a time when the League began to put on pounds and become obese with power too big for its breeches—replete with corruption, bloated spheres of influence with the annexation of systems spread all over God's creation (at a time there still was a God and he wasn't the Mandarins), a hamstrung government and a 'Brotherhood of Mandarins' too big to tame. Considering anything else is illogical.

It is like saying that Grayson's Faithful weren't problematic to Grayson in Grayson's early history. Of course not. There were too many other things on their plate. Like the entire survival of the Grayson species. Heck, Grayson needed the Faithful in its Middle Ages. Therefore, placing Grayson's Middle Ages on exhibit as support for the Faithful would also be, illogical.

When the League was just a buck-and-a-half, so too was everybody else. And I'd be willing to bet that the League's present Constitution is but a shallow representation of its founding self—bearing little to no resemblance at all to the original ink where appropriate to the current thread of conversation. At that time, its [C c]onstitution was also a buck-and-a-half and the League's [c]onstitution was probably never really challenged until the Final Wars.

(Oh and in an old infodump David specifically said " Fifth, membership in the League (except for those planets which are essentially captive provinces under OFS rule) is entirely voluntary.

Granted. BUT! With League membership comes some implied responsibility to that membership without even considering what is written. In no way shape or form does it provide providence to a traitor in the presence of war.

NO! Before anyone reacts, I'm not calling Beowulf a traitor. The Mandarins are. Rolling the Leagues' history back to the Middle Ages of seeding space, there could be found NO possibility of an appendage becoming the kind of traitor produced by Beowulf. Real or imagined. Even if textev did bear witness of anyone leaving we can pretty much guess that she didn't carry the implications as it does now with Beowulf, or as the League's Mandarins perceive that her leaving does.

Heck, were the Mandarins even a corrupted thing in the eras that you chose to place on exhibit?

Jonathan, this has got to be the most illogical post I've ever gotten from you. Frankly, I keep rolling back the scroll so much to recheck that the post is indeed yours that I'm developing a blister on my screen finger. I'm very disappointed in you. This is not your style. Has someone hijacked Jonathan's computer? I've seen much much better from you.


Hearken, I'll take this as my cue that my invitation to this conversation has been rescinded. Thanks everyone for the conversation.

Do continue to look both ways before crossing the League's hyper limit. It should all be very interesting in the final book which I think has entered the MWJ even as we speak, so we don't have much long to await its arrival. Would be nice if it was shipped by Streak Boat 'eh?

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
<snip>

[17xx PD] Gustav Anderman founds the Andermani Empire

.

The Volsung Mercenaries at Manticore in the Manticore Ascendent series were actually a splinter group of Gustav's mercenary force. If memory serves, we were told athat we will hear more of Gustav in the next book or two in that series. This would place Gustav in the early to mid 1500s pd.

Ug. I had a major brain fart translating "16th century" into a year. You're of course right, its in the 1500s sometime. And given that it was discussed at a recent event in 'A Call to Duty' (in the period set in 1523 PD) it must be very early 16th Century.

cthia wrote:
I don't get it.

Your post also nullifies the need for all of the discussion in every other area up for consideration up to and including the present thread. There would also have been no worry of being attacked by any other navy. There was no Battle Fleet. No OFS. There was no rampant corruption. No worry about an Eridani violation. The Eridani Edict wasn't penned until 1410. There would also be no need to worry about appendages succeeding in the middle of a war. And the appendages certainly didn't have to worry about the League in the manner that they do now.

The Leagues' Constitution has been amended, what, over a hundred times? Heck, was their a League in the Middle Ages? LOL

Obviously, my stance, in trying to entertain this thread and the possible options and legal paths that the League might pursue (again, I'm a Manty too) is obviously pursuant to a time when the League began to put on pounds and become obese with power too big for its breeches—replete with corruption, bloated spheres of influence with the annexation of systems spread all over God's creation (at a time there still was a God and he wasn't the Mandarins), a hamstrung government and a 'Brotherhood of Mandarins' too big to tame. Considering anything else is illogical.

First, you were the one who was talking about the League having an incomparable navy when the Constitution was written. I'm sorry if I misunderstood that to mean when it was originally written. My post was (in an admittedly very long winded way) primarily explaining why that couldn't have been true way back then.

Yes their constitution has been amended, and more than 100 times. (IIRC the Edict was something like the 119th amendment).

But I'm having serious trouble believing that the League (which still didn't manage to amend in permission to directly tax the governments or systems within it, nor to interfere at all with their internal operation) at some point decided and got unanimous support for an amendment making it harder for systems to leave -- just because the SLN had grown into a behemoth. (Especially since David did confirm that it is still blatantly unconstitutional to force a system to remain in the League)