GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

PeterZ wrote:There is an important distinction I think needs to be explored.

If the SEM is acting as if in a state of war and has begun the legal internal processes needed to prosecute a war, does the SLN need to itself formally declare war whether or not the SEM/GA formally declares war? In that circumstance the SL federal government may be able to call on emergency powers to fend off the aggressor SEM.

The logic of it all stems from the wording of the SL Constitution. If the war powers stem from the SL declaring war and only then, the Mandarins are screwed.

If the war powers stem from an SL declaration of war or war being declared by any other opponent against the SL, they have wiggle room.

If however, a state of conflict arises but no declaration made by or given to the Solarian League, does the Constitution allow the federal government to use its war powers? My working assumption is that the SL Constitution does not so allow. It needs a formal declaration of war to be made by or against the SL.

Under this circumstance, it doesn't matter what the SEM did as a response to the SL invasion....attempted invasion of its home system. It doesn't matter so long as no formal declaration against the League was made by the SEM. In the SEM's internal processes, it simply declares war on the Masen Alignment. Every bit of Solarian League active military hostilities can be linked to that entity's hostility to the SEM and Haven.....even the SL.

Hence my speculation. Fighting the SL simply stems from the RoH's and SEM's war against the MAlign, not against the SL. That the SL continues to attack the GA can be effectively portrayed as a bunch of bunnies trying to gnaw an irish wolfhound to death. The wolfhound is busy looking for wolves attacking his flock, the bunnies are just a nuisance. Swat, swat, bite, bite and the issue is no longer a nuisance. Now, where are those wolves?

If I am correct, someone in Beowulf would have advised against offering a formal declaration against the League. The de facto state Honor describes is insufficient to trigger the granting of the war powers by the Constitution.

Duckk wrote:It totally is an open and shut case. There is no declaration of war (or even a state of emergency), so the federal government is expressly forbidden from overriding Beowulf's sovereignty. And since that same federal government threatened to open fire on BSDF ships and forcefully coerce Beowulf Transit Control into following its orders during Filareta's misbegotten adventure, then Beowulf has every reason to disassociate itself from that government. The mechanisms for that disassociation is written into the League's constitution itself and was never amended out, and no one has mentioned any restrictions on that right. The federal government will try to bend the law into a pretzel to revoke that right. Its legality is wholly dependent on making it stick, in the same sense the American Civil War settled the question of whether states have the right to secede. The chances of the League forcing Beowulf stay is substantially lower than that of the Confederacy's.

Duckk wrote:Don't be obtuse. The act of declaring an emergency unlocks certain executive powers that would normally not be available otherwise. It's a required procedural element to make subsequent actions legal. For instance, suspension of habeas corpus can only be done during a state of emergency. And since the Mandarins have tried so very hard to make it seem like "business as usual", no such declaration has been made, so any attempt to trample the nominal peacetime rights of sovereign systems is going to pretty quickly alarm others who don't buy into the Mandarin's version of events. Because that's open and shut illegal.

Duckk wrote:Don't be obtuse. The act of declaring an emergency unlocks certain executive powers that would normally not be available otherwise. It's a required procedural element to make subsequent actions legal. For instance, suspension of habeas corpus can only be done during a state of emergency. And since the Mandarins have tried so very hard to make it seem like "business as usual", no such declaration has been made, so any attempt to trample the nominal peacetime rights of sovereign systems is going to pretty quickly alarm others who don't buy into the Mandarin's version of events. Because that's open and shut illegal.

On Oct. 17, 2006, President George W. Bush signed a law suspending the right of habeas corpus to persons "determined by the United States" to be an "enemy combatant" in the Global War on Terror. President Bush's action drew severe criticism, mainly for the law's failure to specifically designate who in the United States will determine who is and who is not an "enemy combatant."

"What, Really, a Time of Shame this is..."

To President Bush's support for the law -- the Military Commissions Act of 2006 -- and its suspension of writs of habeas corpus, Jonathan Turley, professor of constitutional law at George Washington University stated, "What, really, a time of shame this is for the American system.

What the Congress did and what the president signed today essentially revokes over 200 years of American principles and values."

But it Was Not the First Time

In fact, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 was not the first time in the history of the U.S. Constitution that its guaranteed right to writs of habeas corpus has been suspended by an action of the President of the United States. In the early days of the U.S. Civil War President Abraham Lincoln suspended writs of habeas corpus. Both presidents based their action on the dangers of war, and both presidents faced sharp criticism for carrying out what many believed to be an attack on the Constitution. There were, however, both similarities and differences between the actions of Presidents Bush and Lincoln.

kzt wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The Protectorates operate as part of the SL. They are simply not members with representatives in the Chamber of Stars. Their economy operates using Solarian Credits. The transstellars make money from these systems not simply because they buy export items, but also because they sell finished goods to them and keep the economy captive. OFS and the transstellars force the protectorate states to buy from SL sources either through imports or through SL owned local manufactories. The transstellars also finance the protectorates capital needs. All those profits in Solarian Credits go back to Sol or the transstellars' coffers.
No dbs, not cash transfers.

The SL is the UN, not the EU. It's not a nation that issues currency. There are assorted currencies used that are considered strong currencies. For example the chips issued by the major SL banks, but this is not official SL tender, they are Banco de Madrid tender. It's considered a very useful currency because everyone accepts it at a reasonably uniform rate. And there are other currencies that are not considered strong currencies that are widely accepted by everyone, like say the money issued by the puppet government of a planet enslaved by OFS.

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:There is an important distinction I think needs to be explored.

If the SEM is acting as if in a state of war and has begun the legal internal processes needed to prosecute a war, does the SLN need to itself formally declare war whether or not the SEM/GA formally declares war? In that circumstance the SL federal government may be able to call on emergency powers to fend off the aggressor SEM.

The logic of it all stems from the wording of the SL Constitution. If the war powers stem from the SL declaring war and only then, the Mandarins are screwed.

If the war powers stem from an SL declaration of war or war being declared by any other opponent against the SL, they have wiggle room.

If however, a state of conflict arises but no declaration made by or given to the Solarian League, does the Constitution allow the federal government to use its war powers? My working assumption is that the SL Constitution does not so allow. It needs a formal declaration of war to be made by or against the SL.

Under this circumstance, it doesn't matter what the SEM did as a response to the SL invasion....attempted invasion of its home system. It doesn't matter so long as no formal declaration against the League was made by the SEM. In the SEM's internal processes, it simply declares war on the Masen Alignment. Every bit of Solarian League active military hostilities can be linked to that entity's hostility to the SEM and Haven.....even the SL.

Hence my speculation. Fighting the SL simply stems from the RoH's and SEM's war against the MAlign, not against the SL. That the SL continues to attack the GA can be effectively portrayed as a bunch of bunnies trying to gnaw an irish wolfhound to death. The wolfhound is busy looking for wolves attacking his flock, the bunnies are just a nuisance. Swat, swat, bite, bite and the issue is no longer a nuisance. Now, where are those wolves?

If I am correct, someone in Beowulf would have advised against offering a formal declaration against the League. The de facto state Honor describes is insufficient to trigger the granting of the war powers by the Constitution.

This is where I was trying to lead the conversation from the outset of my very first post opening this can of worms. I oftentimes have to pull teeth.

Kudos Peter.

Yet, the law isn't always clear-cut. There is a such thing to consider called "intent of the law."

Remember, we must consider that when the last revision of the Constitution was inked, no one in their right mind thought there'd be such an enemy that was stupid enough to challenge the League. Hence, perhaps no wording to that effect.

I'd be hard-pressed to believe that the intent of the Constitution was to prevent the League from protecting itself from any perceived threat. Up to an including any emergency preemptive strikes if it indeed deems such an attack is imperative.

.

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:There is an important distinction I think needs to be explored.

If the SEM is acting as if in a state of war and has begun the legal internal processes needed to prosecute a war, does the SLN need to itself formally declare war whether or not the SEM/GA formally declares war? In that circumstance the SL federal government may be able to call on emergency powers to fend off the aggressor SEM.

The logic of it all stems from the wording of the SL Constitution. If the war powers stem from the SL declaring war and only then, the Mandarins are screwed.

If the war powers stem from an SL declaration of war or war being declared by any other opponent against the SL, they have wiggle room.

If however, a state of conflict arises but no declaration made by or given to the Solarian League, does the Constitution allow the federal government to use its war powers? My working assumption is that the SL Constitution does not so allow. It needs a formal declaration of war to be made by or against the SL.

Under this circumstance, it doesn't matter what the SEM did as a response to the SL invasion....attempted invasion of its home system. It doesn't matter so long as no formal declaration against the League was made by the SEM. In the SEM's internal processes, it simply declares war on the Masen Alignment. Every bit of Solarian League active military hostilities can be linked to that entity's hostility to the SEM and Haven.....even the SL.

Hence my speculation. Fighting the SL simply stems from the RoH's and SEM's war against the MAlign, not against the SL. That the SL continues to attack the GA can be effectively portrayed as a bunch of bunnies trying to gnaw an irish wolfhound to death. The wolfhound is busy looking for wolves attacking his flock, the bunnies are just a nuisance. Swat, swat, bite, bite and the issue is no longer a nuisance. Now, where are those wolves?

If I am correct, someone in Beowulf would have advised against offering a formal declaration against the League. The de facto state Honor describes is insufficient to trigger the granting of the war powers by the Constitution.

This is where I was trying to lead the conversation from the outset of my very first post opening this can of worms. I oftentimes have to pull teeth.

Kudos Peter.

Yet, the law isn't always clear-cut. There is a such thing to consider called "intent of the law."

Remember, we must consider that when the last revision of the Constitution was inked, no one in their right mind thought there'd be such an enemy that was stupid enough to challenge the League. Hence, perhaps no wording to that effect.

I'd be hard-pressed to believe that the intent of the Constitution was to prevent the League from protecting itself from any perceived threat. Up to an including any emergency preemptive strikes if it indeed deems such an attack is imperative.

.

PeterZ wrote:Not sure I recall the SL doesn't issue currency. Let's go with it for the sake of discussion.

A transstellar won't use the local currency of a protectorate. The OFS governor will adopt whichever currency is best for the transstellar. That currency will be one of the reserve currencies. This forces the local system to borrow from the stransstellar and prevents any local currency from gaining any traction. By removing the locals ability to issue currency, the transstellars control the capital, labor AND production. Pure captive ecoconmy.

So they will be flush with non-Zimbabwe dollars when the GA arrives. Nationalize the transstellars' accounts and they ca do business with the good guys.

kzt wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Not sure I recall the SL doesn't issue currency. Let's go with it for the sake of discussion.

A transstellar won't use the local currency of a protectorate. The OFS governor will adopt whichever currency is best for the transstellar. That currency will be one of the reserve currencies. This forces the local system to borrow from the stransstellar and prevents any local currency from gaining any traction. By removing the locals ability to issue currency, the transstellars control the capital, labor AND production. Pure captive ecoconmy.

So they will be flush with non-Zimbabwe dollars when the GA arrives. Nationalize the transstellars' accounts and they ca do business with the good guys.

No. For example, look at Venezuela. They use a currency that trades at two very different rates with strong currencies. The government rate, which is only used by the favored members of the elite, and the market rate, where it is toilet paper. The ability of the government to grant the privilege of getting access to the world markets at a discount is a power the government uses, in addition to mass arrests and the threat of mass murder, to keep in power and bribe the elite into staying their supporters.