GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

PeterZ wrote:Any Protectorate system the GA visits will be flush with cash.

If you want Zimbabwe dollars, sure. if you want currency more commonly used in international trade, no. Because the way they get that currency is selling stuff to the SL. And I suspect that a lot of that is actually in banks in SL systems that actually have working economies that produce desirable goods other then fancy wood, which allows the rulers to buy their scotch, luxury vehicles, fancy musical instruments and other such things so they can work tirelessly to improve their people's lives.

lyonheart wrote:
Snip

The purpose of the Beowulf plebiscite is whether or not to quit the SL, not to judge or rule on the morality of the mandarins' illegal activities.

Snip

Reminds me of the UK referendum regarding leaving the EU.

All the pro's and cons were detailed by the various parties prior to the vote taking place, but the choices on the ballot paper were to remain or leave the membership of the EU, nothing else.

kzt wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Any Protectorate system the GA visits will be flush with cash.

If you want Zimbabwe dollars, sure. if you want currency more commonly used in international trade, no. Because the way they get that currency is selling stuff to the SL. And I suspect that a lot of that is actually in banks in SL systems that actually have working economies that produce desirable goods other then fancy wood, which allows the rulers to buy their scotch, luxury vehicles, fancy musical instruments and other such things so they can work tirelessly to improve their people's lives.

The Protectorates operate as part of the SL. They are simply not members with representatives in the Chamber of Stars. Their economy operates using Solarian Credits. The transstellars make money from these systems not simply because they buy export items, but also because they sell finished goods to them and keep the economy captive. OFS and the transstellars force the protectorate states to buy from SL sources either through imports or through SL owned local manufactories. The transstellars also finance the protectorates capital needs. All those profits in Solarian Credits go back to Sol or the transstellars' coffers.
No dbs, not cash transfers.

George J. Smith wrote:

lyonheart wrote:
Snip

The purpose of the Beowulf plebiscite is whether or not to quit the SL, not to judge or rule on the morality of the mandarins' illegal activities.

Snip

Reminds me of the UK referendum regarding leaving the EU.

All the pro's and cons were detailed by the various parties prior to the vote taking place, but the choices on the ballot paper were to remain or leave the membership of the EU, nothing else.

Which is my point. Their excuse for leaving is predicated upon the League's intransigence to wage an illegal war -- which doesn't seem to be a open and shut case. IMO

Yet, Beowulf attempting to secede, when the League was in the middle of a war "de facto" or otherwise seems morally bankrupt.

I think the League should somehow enact emergency powers to save itself and declare Beowulf's actions illegal. Which is what I think they'll do, which may stem the tide of subsequent seceders by painting Beowulf traitorous.

"Waging an illegal war" is as determined by Beowulf, she who wishes to secede. Seems too self-serving and questions an appropriate concern of "a conflict of interest" for Beowulf alone to legally be able to make that determination regarding the League.

cthia wrote:Which is my point. Their excuse for leaving is predicated upon the League's intransigence to wage an illegal war -- which doesn't seem to be a open and shut case. IMO

Yet, Beowulf attempting to secede, when the League was in the middle of a war "de facto" or otherwise seems morally bankrupt.

I think the League should somehow enact emergency powers to save itself and declare Beowulf's actions illegal. Which is what I think they'll do, which may stem the tide of subsequent seceders by painting Beowulf traitorous.

"Waging an illegal war" is as determined by Beowulf, she who wishes to secede. Seems too self-serving and questions an appropriate concern of "a conflict of interest" for Beowulf alone to legally be able to make that determination regarding the League.

However low Beowulf's actions may seem - you need to look at them in the legal framework of the SL.

1) Every member has the right to determine whether the League should go to war. If any member dissents, a declaration cannot be made. Legally.

2) The League has no such emergency powers, except in time of war, or in the event of an Eridani Edict violation. See #1.

3) Any member has the right to leave.

The league govt. was attempting to act as if it had such powers, and attempted to force Beowulf, twice, into committing it's military into action without an act of war, and threatened to attack Beowulf's navy when it refused to stand aside, prior to and during the attack on Manticore. All this PRIOR to the de facto state of war declared by Manticore during the second battle of Manticore, and after repeated communications by Manticore govt. to the SL government warning that further actions by the SLN against the RMN would amount to a de facto state. - all of which Beowulf was cognoscent of.

After this, the League govt. attempts to censure Beowulf in the legislature, successfully. Beowulf calls the game rigged, warns everyone that their rights and virtues are next if this continues, and leaves in disgust.

How is that cowardly? It tried to stop the war, and no one listened - instead they were punished for standing up for themselves.

It totally is an open and shut case. There is no declaration of war (or even a state of emergency), so the federal government is expressly forbidden from overriding Beowulf's sovereignty. And since that same federal government threatened to open fire on BSDF ships and forcefully coerce Beowulf Transit Control into following its orders during Filareta's misbegotten adventure, then Beowulf has every reason to disassociate itself from that government. The mechanisms for that disassociation is written into the League's constitution itself and was never amended out, and no one has mentioned any restrictions on that right. The federal government will try to bend the law into a pretzel to revoke that right. Its legality is wholly dependent on making it stick, in the same sense the American Civil War settled the question of whether states have the right to secede. The chances of the League forcing Beowulf stay is substantially lower than that of the Confederacy's.

Duckk wrote:It totally is an open and shut case. There is no declaration of war (or even a state of emergency), so the federal government is expressly forbidden from overriding Beowulf's sovereignty. And since that same federal government threatened to open fire on BSDF ships and forcefully coerce Beowulf Transit Control into following its orders during Filareta's misbegotten adventure, then Beowulf has every reason to disassociate itself from that government. The mechanisms for that disassociation is written into the League's constitution itself and was never amended out, and no one has mentioned any restrictions on that right. The federal government will try to bend the law into a pretzel to revoke that right. Its legality is wholly dependent on making it stick, in the same sense the American Civil War settled the question of whether states have the right to secede. The chances of the League forcing Beowulf stay is substantially lower than that of the Confederacy's.

Duckk is, of course, correct. If there is no way to get out and since the League is not even following their own Constitution, it is nothing more than a dictatorship.

Calling it low would be (almost) the equivalent of condemning the French Underground during World War II for going against their government.

The League has evolved into a machine to make the really rich far richer and make certain the average person got nothing and a whole lot of people were repressed and even murdered.

We've seen huge numbers of settlers murdered and the mandarins ultimately are responsible. And that goes for Filareta's sailors.

There is an important distinction I think needs to be explored.

If the SEM is acting as if in a state of war and has begun the legal internal processes needed to prosecute a war, does the SLN need to itself formally declare war whether or not the SEM/GA formally declares war? In that circumstance the SL federal government may be able to call on emergency powers to fend off the aggressor SEM.

The logic of it all stems from the wording of the SL Constitution. If the war powers stem from the SL declaring war and only then, the Mandarins are screwed.

If the war powers stem from an SL declaration of war or war being declared by any other opponent against the SL, they have wiggle room.

If however, a state of conflict arises but no declaration made by or given to the Solarian League, does the Constitution allow the federal government to use its war powers? My working assumption is that the SL Constitution does not so allow. It needs a formal declaration of war to be made by or against the SL.

Under this circumstance, it doesn't matter what the SEM did as a response to the SL invasion....attempted invasion of its home system. It doesn't matter so long as no formal declaration against the League was made by the SEM. In the SEM's internal processes, it simply declares war on the Masen Alignment. Every bit of Solarian League active military hostilities can be linked to that entity's hostility to the SEM and Haven.....even the SL.

Hence my speculation. Fighting the SL simply stems from the RoH's and SEM's war against the MAlign, not against the SL. That the SL continues to attack the GA can be effectively portrayed as a bunch of bunnies trying to gnaw an irish wolfhound to death. The wolfhound is busy looking for wolves attacking his flock, the bunnies are just a nuisance. Swat, swat, bite, bite and the issue is no longer a nuisance. Now, where are those wolves?

If I am correct, someone in Beowulf would have advised against offering a formal declaration against the League. The de facto state Honor describes is insufficient to trigger the granting of the war powers by the Constitution.

kzt wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Any Protectorate system the GA visits will be flush with cash.

If you want Zimbabwe dollars, sure. if you want currency more commonly used in international trade, no. Because the way they get that currency is selling stuff to the SL. And I suspect that a lot of that is actually in banks in SL systems that actually have working economies that produce desirable goods other then fancy wood, which allows the rulers to buy their scotch, luxury vehicles, fancy musical instruments and other such things so they can work tirelessly to improve their people's lives.

And that brings up another question - how much will the protectorates's economies be hurt in the short term?

We know that David said that every healthy planetary economy in the Honorverse is self sufficient for most things - or can be if the economics permit it. However, we also know that the Protectorate's economies are artificially damaged by the plundering the transstellars are doing to maximize their profit.

This is similar to what the British Commonwealth did in the 18th and 19th centuries in Africa, Asia and S. America. They brought in mass produced consumer goods at prices which undercut the local goods. At the same time they prohibited the import of most industrial goods. (i.e. We'll sell you a train engine to work the mine, but not the ability to make your own steel.)

Within a few years, the local competition disappears, and prices can be increased, maximizing profits. suborning the local rulers and paying off certain people keep the system functioning.

Over time you get to the point where portions of the economy, which could be produced locally, are not, and the former infrastructure and knowledge base to produce them has disappeared.

But internally, the artificially damaged economy is healthy. because all items are available to the economy. You can still buy item like light bulbs, even though they are manufactured elsewhere.

However, we are looking at a point quickly coming up where the artificial economy s going to stop. Right now, everything is still in motion, and freighters carrying light bulbs are in route to the protectorates. However, the next freighter is probably not coming. Large protions of those economies are going to be a huge hole that they cannot fill locally. How can that be handled in the short term?

PeterZ wrote:The Protectorates operate as part of the SL. They are simply not members with representatives in the Chamber of Stars. Their economy operates using Solarian Credits. The transstellars make money from these systems not simply because they buy export items, but also because they sell finished goods to them and keep the economy captive. OFS and the transstellars force the protectorate states to buy from SL sources either through imports or through SL owned local manufactories. The transstellars also finance the protectorates capital needs. All those profits in Solarian Credits go back to Sol or the transstellars' coffers.
No dbs, not cash transfers.

The SL is the UN, not the EU. It's not a nation that issues currency. There are assorted currencies used that are considered strong currencies. For example the chips issued by the major SL banks, but this is not official SL tender, they are Banco de Madrid tender. It's considered a very useful currency because everyone accepts it at a reasonably uniform rate. And there are other currencies that are not considered strong currencies that are widely accepted by everyone, like say the money issued by the puppet government of a planet enslaved by OFS.