GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

kzt wrote:

saber964 wrote:Actually the SL and the GA are at war. It's been stated several times in SoV that the GA declared war on the SL. Also IIRC Harrington stated that if the SLN's 11th Fleet crossed the Manticore-A hyper limit, a state of war would exist between the SL and GA.

There is a defacto state of war between the SL and the SEM, but not a formal one. Or even the legislative equivalent, which means a bunch of vague SL things don't come into play.

Theemile wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
The whole idea that it was wrong for Beowulf to leave in time of war is ridiculous. They left because they opposed the war.

Of course, lawyers often create their own worlds. I believe it was Mark Twain who wrote that they can take a chink in a brick wall and turn it into a triumphal arch.

Most importantly, NO ONE HAS DECLARED WAR. Manticore has said that if the SL does not respond to it's liking concerning the happenings in Talbott (and later Manticore), that a de facto state of war exists between Manticore and it's allies and the SL, which is not the same as declaring war.

And if war has not been declared, the appropriate chapters of the League constitution and charter do not apply.

At which time, the argument is back to Beowulf leaving because they feel the SL isn't abiding by it's own rules and principles.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:quote="Brigade XO""as the leader of Beowulf’s delegation, acting on the instructions of my star system’s legally elected government, I hereby announce that Beowulf will hold a system-wide plebiscite two T-months from today to determine whether or not the Beowulf system shall withdraw from the Solarian League.”

That is a really clear notice of intent. It also frames the mechanism which Beowulf is going to use to make the determination as to the opinion of it's citizens so I'm going to guess that it is probably drawn from the language that you could find in the League Constitution IF you could read it in the series. That would be the sensible thing for Beowulf to do, cite the relevent mechanism and move forward on it.

Usually, if you are going to do something legally, you follow the forms and formats laid out for what your are doing. That the League bureaucracy, the mass of mostly politicians in the Assembly of Stars and the Mandarins both don't like what Beowulf has announced what it intends and clearly see the damage and loss to the power and sources of money is very much the greatest portion of why they are objecting and are moving the various areas of government including the SLN to stop it. Failing to stop Beowulf in a legal setting (which Beowulf clearly sees as impossible) the Mandarins are falling back on the OFS book of dirty tricks and military intervention. While, from what we are being told and shown, a very large portion of the League citizenry seem to be semi-brainless idiots who will go with the propaganda of the Education bureaucracy, the leadership of the member worlds probably are going to see what is being done as a major threat to their own survival. Not that Beowulf is going to secede from the League, but what the bureaucracy is willing to do about it to maintain their power and income.
Might be interesting to get some views of other League Member governments and what they are now doing to protect themselves from the bureaucracy being about to inflict on Beowulf. Remember, these are politicians who have to worry about both their positions and their lives at home if the League gets away with interfering with Beowulf's move since that will have opened the door to overt moves against any other League Member for direct military interference for objecting to bureaucratic assault on Member rights. It's going to be like Darth Vader telling Lando he is changing the terms of the deal and Lando had better be happy he isn't making more changes.quote


All rebellions search for a legal reason. Think of the US Declaration of Independence and it's opening line about heeding the opinions of others.

Again, if you win you are founding fathers (and mothers). If you lose you are probably dead traitors.

Interestingly enough, the quote "Treason never doth prosper. What's the reason? If it doth prosper, none dare call it treason" was originally made by John Harrington. An ancestor?

PeterZ wrote:

Theemile wrote:quote="ldwechsler"

The whole idea that it was wrong for Beowulf to leave in time of war is ridiculous. They left because they opposed the war.

Of course, lawyers often create their own worlds. I believe it was Mark Twain who wrote that they can take a chink in a brick wall and turn it into a triumphal arch.quote

Most importantly, NO ONE HAS DECLARED WAR. Manticore has said that if the SL does not respond to it's liking concerning the happenings in Talbott (and later Manticore), that a de facto state of war exists between Manticore and it's allies and the SL, which is not the same as declaring war.

And if war has not been declared, the appropriate chapters of the League constitution and charter do not apply.

At which time, the argument is back to Beowulf leaving because they feel the SL isn't abiding by it's own rules and principles.

I've been wondering about that. Operating under de facto conditions consistent with a state of war is not the same as declaring a state of war....legally. Some Beowulfian politician wants to really put the Mandarins' reproductive organs in a vice. Everything the SL is planning to do to Beowulf will be illegal. Once the SLN is gutted, Beowulf can use the GA as a threat to try the Mandarins under Solarian law. They acted well beyond the scope of their constitutional authority.

Theemile wrote:Most importantly, NO ONE HAS DECLARED WAR. Manticore has said that if the SL does not respond to it's liking concerning the happenings in Talbott (and later Manticore), that a de facto state of war exists between Manticore and it's allies and the SL, which is not the same as declaring war.

And if war has not been declared, the appropriate chapters of the League constitution and charter do not apply.

At which time, the argument is back to Beowulf leaving because they feel the SL isn't abiding by it's own rules and principles.

Jonathan_S wrote:In some respects it would be dishonorable not to leave the League during this state of de facto war. The League is both the aggressor and the one violating it's one Constitutional limits in order to do so.
"We must all hang together" doesn't really seem to apply here. What better time to throw up your hands and loudly declaim that you're having no part of this insane and illegal behavior?

Anyway I don't think Beowulf has actually technically given formal notice yet. They announced their intent to hold a plebiscite to withdraw in ART

A Rising Thunder; Ch 34 wrote:“We expected nothing else from a morally, ethically, and legally bankrupt institution,” she continued finally, her voice colder than ever. “However, there is another right which the Constitution guarantees to every member star system, and Beowulf chooses to exercise that right today. If we cannot oppose the ‘Mandarins’’ criminal and disastrous policies from inside the system, we will no longer attempt to. Instead, as the leader of Beowulf’s delegation, acting on the instructions of my star system’s legally elected government, I hereby announce that Beowulf will hold a system-wide plebiscite two T-months from today to determine whether or not the Beowulf system shall withdraw from the Solarian League.”

Jonathan_S wrote:But we haven't seen the results of that vote (though everyone seems to consider it a forgone conclusion) much less formal notice that Beowulf is definitely leaving.

plebiscite

NOUN
the direct vote of all the members of an electorate on an important public question such as a change in the constitution.

PeterZ wrote:

cthia wrote:Now that's an interesting twist.

'Course, it could backfire, actually giving the League a chance at a legal podium, audience and formal mouthpiece. If Beowulf is successful at seceding, perhaps they should just leave well enough alone. Perhaps.

About that de facto state of war. No, war was not formally declared. Yet. The League could go the route of "just a technicality," and that Beowulf never gave them a chance to get around to it. That Beowulf jeopardized lives of the League by acting with a "de facto enemy." And that moral responsibilities and allegiance to the League even under such conditions morally stood clear along "unwritten" "moral" obligations. Some sort of League legal mumbo dumbo. Of course I don't agree. But war is a funny thing. And oftentimes, ones moral obligations to war is unwritten.

I still think the League should be able to enact some sort of emergency powers and an emergency rewrite of the Constitution to save themselves.

Sort of like what the government pulled to strip Muhammad Ali of his title. Legal maneuverings when it thought its welfare was endangered.

What is stopping the League from convening its own court on the matter and ruling against Beowulf? Which ruling would stand firm?

The RMN is what's stopping them.

Move forward in time to when the RMN has completed its destruction of the entire BF reserve. The SEM proclaims that although they have acted as if a state of war exists, they have not declared war. Nor will they IF someone with enough brains can be found in the SL government to actually discuss the state of conflict with them. That's all they have wanted for heaven's sake!

Beowulf was illegally hounded out of the League because the SL federal government acted illegally in trying to prosecute offensive actions through their sovereign territory. They were further attacked by the SLN and massive casualties inflected upon that Star Nation. All of these actions stemmed from the illegal actions taken by the Mandarins. One of the items to be discussed as part of any peace treaty is a trial of the Mandarins under Solarian laws status quo ante bellum...well ante hostilities anyway.

If no one wants to discuss the current hostile state of affairs, then the GA will have no recourse but to continue to act as if a state of war exists. Any Solarian registered ship or orbital infrastructure owned by the Solarian federal government will be considered targets. Ships registered under any local star nation or property owned by a local star nation is NOT automatically a target. Those circumstances will be addressed on a case by case basis. Any star nation that wishes to have its circumstances reviewed please petition Beowulf.

If the Solarian League Federal government doesn't respond, they will be ignored at best and incentives provided for every star nation to further ignore them. Best way to destroy a government based on their unearned reputation is to illustrate that the reputation has absolutely no weight whatsoever.

saber964 wrote:Actually the SL and the GA are at war. It's been stated several times in SoV that the GA declared war on the SL. Also IIRC Harrington stated that if the SLN's 11th Fleet crossed the Manticore-A hyper limit, a state of war would exist between the SL and GA.

cthia wrote:

kzt wrote:quote="saber964"Actually the SL and the GA are at war. It's been stated several times in SoV that the GA declared war on the SL. Also IIRC Harrington stated that if the SLN's 11th Fleet crossed the Manticore-A hyper limit, a state of war would exist between the SL and GA.quote
There is a defacto state of war between the SL and the SEM, but not a formal one. Or even the legislative equivalent, which means a bunch of vague SL things don't come into play.

Again, a possible gray area since the RMN implied...

If A. Cross this line

Then B. War.

Enough to argue a technicality?

Remember, war can start without a formal declaration. Consider these missiles bearing down your backside your formal declaration.

It is one reason Beth was so pissed at the Peeps. They weren't so big on issuing a formal resumption of hostilities either, the League could point out. The League may have at least a frayed thread to pull at.

lyonheart wrote:Hello TheEmile,

Quite right again, of course.

War is not simply a state or condition of war, but all the government enabling acts that allow the war to continue.

Given the hundreds of trillions this war is going to cost, the inadequacy of the SL financing it, how do you collect and deliver all the protectorate fees back to Sol in a reasonable time when the GA control nearly all wormholes?

While the newsies' db's can go thru the hyper bridges, the SL's db's can't, so it will take 5-8 weeks one way, if they were already out there to return, or 10-16 weeks per round trip when so much will have changed in that time so how much will get through even the first time.

The SL might fold faster than some thought.

L