GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

Theemile wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
The whole idea that it was wrong for Beowulf to leave in time of war is ridiculous. They left because they opposed the war.

Of course, lawyers often create their own worlds. I believe it was Mark Twain who wrote that they can take a chink in a brick wall and turn it into a triumphal arch.

Most importantly, NO ONE HAS DECLARED WAR. Manticore has said that if the SL does not respond to it's liking concerning the happenings in Talbott (and later Manticore), that a de facto state of war exists between Manticore and it's allies and the SL, which is not the same as declaring war.

And if war has not been declared, the appropriate chapters of the League constitution and charter do not apply.

At which time, the argument is back to Beowulf leaving because they feel the SL isn't abiding by it's own rules and principles.

Theemile wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
The whole idea that it was wrong for Beowulf to leave in time of war is ridiculous. They left because they opposed the war.

Of course, lawyers often create their own worlds. I believe it was Mark Twain who wrote that they can take a chink in a brick wall and turn it into a triumphal arch.

Most importantly, NO ONE HAS DECLARED WAR. Manticore has said that if the SL does not respond to it's liking concerning the happenings in Talbott (and later Manticore), that a de facto state of war exists between Manticore and it's allies and the SL, which is not the same as declaring war.

And if war has not been declared, the appropriate chapters of the League constitution and charter do not apply.

At which time, the argument is back to Beowulf leaving because they feel the SL isn't abiding by it's own rules and principles.

PeterZ wrote:I've been wondering about that. Operating under de facto conditions consistent with a state of war is not the same as declaring a state of war....legally. Some Beowulfian politician wants to really put the Mandarins' reproductive organs in a vice. Everything the SL is planning to do to Beowulf will be illegal. Once the SLN is gutted, Beowulf can use the GA as a threat to try the Mandarins under Solarian law. They acted well beyond the scope of their constitutional authority.

cthia wrote:Now that's an interesting twist.

'Course, it could backfire, actually giving the League a chance at a legal podium, audience and formal mouthpiece. If Beowulf is successful at seceding, perhaps they should just leave well enough alone. Perhaps.

About that de facto state of war. No, war was not formally declared. Yet. The League could go the route of "just a technicality," and that Beowulf never gave them a chance to get around to it. That Beowulf jeopardized lives of the League by acting with a "de facto enemy." And that moral responsibilities and allegiance to the League even under such conditions morally stood clear along "unwritten" "moral" obligations. Some sort of League legal mumbo dumbo. Of course I don't agree. But war is a funny thing. And oftentimes, ones moral obligations to war is unwritten.

I still think the League should be able to enact some sort of emergency powers and an emergency rewrite of the Constitution to save themselves.

Sort of like what the government pulled to strip Muhammad Ali of his title. Legal maneuverings when it thought its welfare was endangered.

What is stopping the League from convening its own court on the matter and ruling against Beowulf? Which ruling would stand firm?

Theemile wrote:
Most importantly, NO ONE HAS DECLARED WAR. Manticore has said that if the SL does not respond to it's liking concerning the happenings in Talbott (and later Manticore), that a de facto state of war exists between Manticore and it's allies and the SL, which is not the same as declaring war.

cthia wrote:I still think the League should be able to enact some sort of emergency powers and an emergency rewrite of the Constitution to save themselves.

Brigade XO wrote:"as the leader of Beowulf’s delegation, acting on the instructions of my star system’s legally elected government, I hereby announce that Beowulf will hold a system-wide plebiscite two T-months from today to determine whether or not the Beowulf system shall withdraw from the Solarian League.”

That is a really clear notice of intent. It also frames the mechanism which Beowulf is going to use to make the determination as to the opinion of it's citizens so I'm going to guess that it is probably drawn from the language that you could find in the League Constitution IF you could read it in the series. That would be the sensible thing for Beowulf to do, cite the relevent mechanism and move forward on it.

Usually, if you are going to do something legally, you follow the forms and formats laid out for what your are doing. That the League bureaucracy, the mass of mostly politicians in the Assembly of Stars and the Mandarins both don't like what Beowulf has announced what it intends and clearly see the damage and loss to the power and sources of money is very much the greatest portion of why they are objecting and are moving the various areas of government including the SLN to stop it. Failing to stop Beowulf in a legal setting (which Beowulf clearly sees as impossible) the Mandarins are falling back on the OFS book of dirty tricks and military intervention. While, from what we are being told and shown, a very large portion of the League citizenry seem to be semi-brainless idiots who will go with the propaganda of the Education bureaucracy, the leadership of the member worlds probably are going to see what is being done as a major threat to their own survival. Not that Beowulf is going to secede from the League, but what the bureaucracy is willing to do about it to maintain their power and income.
Might be interesting to get some views of other League Member governments and what they are now doing to protect themselves from the bureaucracy being about to inflict on Beowulf. Remember, these are politicians who have to worry about both their positions and their lives at home if the League gets away with interfering with Beowulf's move since that will have opened the door to overt moves against any other League Member for direct military interference for objecting to bureaucratic assault on Member rights. It's going to be like Darth Vader telling Lando he is changing the terms of the deal and Lando had better be happy he isn't making more changes.

ldwechsler wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:"as the leader of Beowulf’s delegation, acting on the instructions of my star system’s legally elected government, I hereby announce that Beowulf will hold a system-wide plebiscite two T-months from today to determine whether or not the Beowulf system shall withdraw from the Solarian League.”

That is a really clear notice of intent. It also frames the mechanism which Beowulf is going to use to make the determination as to the opinion of it's citizens so I'm going to guess that it is probably drawn from the language that you could find in the League Constitution IF you could read it in the series. That would be the sensible thing for Beowulf to do, cite the relevent mechanism and move forward on it.

Usually, if you are going to do something legally, you follow the forms and formats laid out for what your are doing. That the League bureaucracy, the mass of mostly politicians in the Assembly of Stars and the Mandarins both don't like what Beowulf has announced what it intends and clearly see the damage and loss to the power and sources of money is very much the greatest portion of why they are objecting and are moving the various areas of government including the SLN to stop it. Failing to stop Beowulf in a legal setting (which Beowulf clearly sees as impossible) the Mandarins are falling back on the OFS book of dirty tricks and military intervention. While, from what we are being told and shown, a very large portion of the League citizenry seem to be semi-brainless idiots who will go with the propaganda of the Education bureaucracy, the leadership of the member worlds probably are going to see what is being done as a major threat to their own survival. Not that Beowulf is going to secede from the League, but what the bureaucracy is willing to do about it to maintain their power and income.
Might be interesting to get some views of other League Member governments and what they are now doing to protect themselves from the bureaucracy being about to inflict on Beowulf. Remember, these are politicians who have to worry about both their positions and their lives at home if the League gets away with interfering with Beowulf's move since that will have opened the door to overt moves against any other League Member for direct military interference for objecting to bureaucratic assault on Member rights. It's going to be like Darth Vader telling Lando he is changing the terms of the deal and Lando had better be happy he isn't making more changes.

All rebellions search for a legal reason. Think of the US Declaration of Independence and it's opening line about heeding the opinions of others.

Again, if you win you are founding fathers (and mothers). If you lose you are probably dead traitors.

saber964 wrote:Actually the SL and the GA are at war. It's been stated several times in SoV that the GA declared war on the SL. Also IIRC Harrington stated that if the SLN's 11th Fleet crossed the Manticore-A hyper limit, a state of war would exist between the SL and GA.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Most importantly, NO ONE HAS DECLARED WAR. Manticore has said that if the SL does not respond to it's liking concerning the happenings in Talbott (and later Manticore), that a de facto state of war exists between Manticore and it's allies and the SL, which is not the same as declaring war.

Hmm. Filereta was warned by Honor that [quote=A Rising Thunder"]If the forces under your command cross the hyper limit of this star system, you will be engaged and destroyed and a state of war will exist between the Solarian League and the Star Empire of Manticore and its allies.

cthia wrote:I still think the League should be able to enact some sort of emergency powers and an emergency rewrite of the Constitution to save themselves.

saber964 wrote:Actually the SL and the GA are at war. It's been stated several times in SoV that the GA declared war on the SL. Also IIRC Harrington stated that if the SLN's 11th Fleet crossed the Manticore-A hyper limit, a state of war would exist between the SL and GA.