Ramifications of absorbing fractured League systems?

The Rembrandt Trade Union was conceived as an alternative and buffer against the OFS by improving the economies through cooperation between the several systems involved. That some of it was perverted by the woman so decided to make it her own little version of OFS (without the military support of an analog to FF) doesn't invalidate the concept.

Such trading leagues on Earth, like the Hanseatic League, usualy also involved some military component to protect shipping. The idea is sound in a post OFS climate as neighboring systems cooperate to improve themselves and make themselves less of a target for the kind of manipulation OFS and various transtellars would employ. The trick is to make them function without the potential problems of becoming the type of transtellar they want to protect against.

I'm aware that the Harrington Plan doesn't preach absorption. That is the reason for the (?)


I simply do not think that it is realistic for the SEM to assume, what should have been, the duties of OFS. Protection. It is impossible by the numbers. There are thousands of League worlds. If the 800# gorilla is to fall, then he has to shed enough pounds. That means a significant portion of its worlds. If that happens, there is no way that the SEM can police, even a thousand worlds. They would need a hell of a lot of ships. It is a huge responsibility that demands a huge investment of resources. I always thought it obvious that that is why the League has so many ships, because it has so many planets to oversee. Yet the League is getting something for its efforts. All the SEM is supposed to benefit from its protection is trade? They'll get that anyways. What system in its right mind wouldn't want to trade with the SEM? If only for the protection it affords when their freighters are in system. Because if you mess with SEM shipping you mess with the SEM.

It is why firefighters and policemen are given free admittance to movie theaters and many other venues, it is for the free protection it affords while they are there. A symbiotic relationship. As a consequence -- because the SEM cannot be everywhere at once, systems are going to seek admittance for a more formal relationship, incurring a more formal protection plan. Or why would they leave the protection of the League and go it alone? There are systems that play by the rules. Yet there are other systems that do not, and will not, play fairly. And these systems also will not hesitate to take advantage of neighboring systems who may be exploitable. OFS didn't just protect systems from piracy and factions, it protected the little kids from each other, back biting, fighting, pulling hair, messing with each others resources -- all the natural things that little kids do.

If the League crumbles there will be anarchy everywhere, no King Kong to fear anymore, and the natives will go berserker. Every system is not the altruistic paragon of human kindness. It won't just be Silesia that is bankrupt of peace and order where lawlessness is the norm. Silesia is the ghetto because it is on the fringe of humanity. Systems have to fight for what they get. Fracturing League systems will also have to jockey for position however they can. They will be cutting ties with the League altogether. The League isn't going to say "Ok, leave us. But we'll continue to trade with you. You can continue to use our freighters, etc., etc." Some systems are going to suffer without more than just a trade agreement with the SEM. Or it will become Silesia all over again. If Manticore does not absorb systems then the RF will have its objectives laid out on a red carpet, for the taking -- only they won't have to take. By that time systems will be begging for another moderator. You don't miss your water until the well runs dry. Remember, the League is corrupt, yes. But there are still benefits of being a part of it.

All IMHO of course.

Why didn't the League see fit to ratify its Constitution to protect from a rebellious secessionist attitude? Was it the sole reason of arrogance, stupidity or both or was it something simpler? Like realizing that there was a reason these systems joined the League in the first place. The League knows that these very same reasons to need the League, or someone, will always exist.

You either pay for protection or you suffer from the lack of it.

cthia wrote:Why didn't the League see fit to ratify its Constitution to protect from a rebellious secessionist attitude?

Because every system has veto power in the star assembly so such a restriction would never pass?

cthia wrote:I'm aware that the Harrington Plan doesn't preach absorption. That is the reason for the (?)


I simply do not think that it is realistic for the SEM to assume, what should have been, the duties of OFS. Protection. It is impossible by the numbers. There are thousands of League worlds.

The SEM and/or GA doesn't have to absorb anyone, and they won't have to police the entirety of human space.

First of all, The Renaissance Factor and similar groups/conquistadors aren't going to tolerate assimilation. They're going to be doing the assimilating and as long as they do it peacefully, the SEM won't care.

Second, as you note, there are thousands of League worlds. Any or all of those are capable of fielding local defense forces and joining treaty organizations which may or may not include the SEM or GA. There are several other players in the non-league arms market that are named or implied in textev, and none of them will be inclined to let the SEM/GA have a monopoly on system defense installations or shipbuilding.

The Harrington Doctrine is to "make friends" and discourage large organizations that self-identify as the inheritor of the Solarian League -- i.e. prone to revanchism.
You don't make friends by assimilating everyone you encounter.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Why didn't the League see fit to ratify its Constitution to protect from a rebellious secessionist attitude?

Because every system has veto power in the star assembly so such a restriction would never pass?

And why should they care? If you don't want to be part of our trade association then leave. The SL isn't a government. It's a bunch of things that are useful to have around and are more efficient when implemented once rather than by every member.

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:I'm aware that the Harrington Plan doesn't preach absorption. That is the reason for the (?)


I simply do not think that it is realistic for the SEM to assume, what should have been, the duties of OFS. Protection. It is impossible by the numbers. There are thousands of League worlds.

The SEM and/or GA doesn't have to absorb anyone, and they won't have to police the entirety of human space.

First of all, The Renaissance Factor and similar groups/conquistadors aren't going to tolerate assimilation. They're going to be doing the assimilating and as long as they do it peacefully, the SEM won't care.

Second, as you note, there are thousands of League worlds. Any or all of those are capable of fielding local defense forces and joining treaty organizations which may or may not include the SEM or GA. There are several other players in the non-league arms market that are named or implied in textev, and none of them will be inclined to let the SEM/GA have a monopoly on system defense installations or shipbuilding.

The Harrington Doctrine is to "make friends" and discourage large organizations that self-identify as the inheritor of the Solarian League -- i.e. prone to revanchism.
You don't make friends by assimilating everyone you encounter.

Not assimilate. Assimilate is such an unfriendly Borg initiative that is too aggressive for what this thread is about. I'm referring to systems that rather have a bigger partner.

Do you think all systems would want to choose the unproven, unheard of RF over the SEM?

Weird Harold wrote:

cthia wrote:Why didn't the League see fit to ratify its Constitution to protect from a rebellious secessionist attitude?

Because every system has veto power in the star assembly so such a restriction would never pass?

kzt wrote:And why should they care? If you don't want to be part of our trade association then leave. The SL isn't a government. It's a bunch of things that are useful to have around and are more efficient when implemented once rather than by every member.

Which is essentially the same point I made...

"You either pay for our protection or you suffer from the lack of it."

It is a reality that will still exist and awaits each seceding member. It is the mob mentality which is older than the mob.

I can't see how the SEM can realistically provide that protection. It is a pipe dream.

There is a third option for all those systems that simply will not subsume themselves into a larger polity. The SEM is offering or will offer soon, technical and financial resources for systems to become capable of self defense and financial independence. They are free to join self defense alliances or not as circumstances dictate. I believe that the original Manticoran Alliance would serve as the template for the average Verge or Protectorate system and the current Grand Alliance for any seceding League member system.

The only thing Alliance members join is a defense alliance. They are independent polities in all other particulars. The Alliance doesn't police the system. The star nation polices its own space and protects its own commerce. They are obligated to send help if the Alliance is attacked and will receive assistance of they are attacked.

The biggest risk for Verge nations and Protectorates is getting their base tech level and infrastructure established to be self sustaining. That would require a decade or two of assistance. Sort of what the SKM invested in the original MA. This time around, there are quite a bit more resources to devote to investing in developing star nations

PeterZ wrote:There is a third option for all those systems that simply will not subsume themselves into a larger polity. The SEM is offering or will offer soon, technical and financial resources for systems to become capable of self defense and financial independence. They are free to join self defense alliances or not as circumstances dictate. I believe that the original Manticoran Alliance would serve as the template for the average Verge or Protectorate system and the current Grand Alliance for any seceding League member system.

The only thing Alliance members join is a defense alliance. They are independent polities in all other particulars. The Alliance doesn't police the system. The star nation polices its own space and protects its own commerce. They are obligated to send help if the Alliance is attacked and will receive assistance of they are attacked.

The biggest risk for Verge nations and Protectorates is getting their base tech level and infrastructure established to be self sustaining. That would require a decade or two of assistance. Sort of what the SKM invested in the original MA. This time around, there are quite a bit more resources to devote to investing in developing star nations

Excellent post Peter, which actually addresses the thread and not its poster. Thank you.

About that financial help. Again, can the SEM afford the finances and technical resources that these many systems will need when they have their own obligations to their real allies. If I were an ally, I'd balk at the knowledge that the SEM is sending ships and resources to systems way out beyond the boondocks. Take care of home first. Reinforce us more, from the MAN that may return, if you have so much money to throw around.

Money is tight in the League now. They are scrambling to balance the budget. If anything, they are robbing Peter to pay Paul, then robbing Paul to pay Susan. Seceding systems will lose much of their income that is tied up in the League banks and system. They have to be prepared to write off many investments and accounts receivables.

All and all, these seceding systems will need short term help that Manticore may be hard pressed to give right now, comprehensively. Which is part of the basis of my notion that some systems may request formal inclusion into the SEM.

They can always secede after they get their testicles out of the sand.