GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

Exactly how many times have the League had to redress someone for violating the Eridani Edict? And what were the dates? Anyone recall? I certainly cannot remember if that detail has been given.

My point is that it certainly would have made being a member of the League more comfortable and removed any long term goals of ever wanting to leave.

Which makes me wonder if the League had anything to do with said strikes themselves, from behind the scenes. Similar to the conspiracy theory that the U.S. somehow brought down the Twin Towers itself.

At any rate, if it were me, I wouldn't send the League notice that I was leaving until I had Manticoran ships in my orbit.

cthia wrote:What was the final disposition of any legal complications of Beowulf seceding?

I don't mean to sidetrack a very interesting thread, but I have to wonder if the League actually has legal legs to stand on. It seems shortsighted of them not to insist on permanent League status of any system joining, especially if of their own accord. Of course, their arrogance may not have inserted such a clause. Yet, I'm left dumbstruck at how easily a member can secede, legally. I am not in any way on the League's side, but you all know I've always been the voice of reason, or unreason LOL, for fairness and for sake of conversation.

Let's say the League hadn't become the cesspool that they are now. Accepting a new member into League status must consist of a certain investment of League resources and it wouldn't be fair for a system to be allowed to secede after allocation of certain resources without a very good and legally acceptable reason. What if there is some sort of clause? Has textev stated one way or the other?

Legally, it seems possible that the League might have a licit leg to stand on. Not saying that they do, but legal maneuvering may indeed be the answer. On what grounds has Beowulf officially stated that they wish to secede? Could it all be blamed on Manticoran meddling?

munroburton wrote:I was thinking that. It's a can of worms which has been opened, is still opening and the implications are not fully known yet.

cthia wrote:Indeed.

Sorry I missed this post munroburton. Actually, I recall mention of some exasperated League personality, forget who, who questioned the possible legality of it. I don't recall hearing anything else of it and was waiting with baited breath.

It simply seems much too easy to secede IMO. What prevents systems from taking advantage of the League—in some laughable alternate reality where the League is not so corrupt and many resources are allocated to a world only to see it secede when they deem they no longer need the League?

Reminds me of the many states that petitioned the Obama administration with delusions of seceding.

phillies wrote:Readers wanting to see large number of very sharp minds tackling these exact questions should follow the Brexit debate in the Guardian, complete with the EU request for money.

It was indeed Kolokoltsov swimming around in my memory on that point. Thanks lyonheart. Ya know, it seems that this issue should have come across the hyper limit at least once before in all of the centuries, which suggests that Kolokoltsov should have much more than a clueless knowledge of the legality of it.

My thanks goes out to phillies for injecting the Brexit debate into the discussion as a template.

cthia wrote:Exactly how many times have the League had to redress someone for violating the Eridani Edict? And what were the dates? Anyone recall? I certainly cannot remember if that detail has been given.

My point is that it certainly would have made being a member of the League more comfortable and removed any long term goals of ever wanting to leave.

Which makes me wonder if the League had anything to do with said strikes themselves, from behind the scenes. Similar to the conspiracy theory that the U.S. somehow brought down the Twin Towers itself.

At any rate, if it were me, I wouldn't send the League notice that I was leaving until I had Manticoran ships in my orbit.

If my drunken wiki informant can be trusted, a total of five times. Pretty much enough examples to make one want to hide under League protection for quite some time.

[quote="cthia"][quote="cthia"]Exactly how many times have the League had to redress someone for violating the Eridani Edict? And what were the dates? Anyone recall? I certainly cannot remember if that detail has been given.

My point is that it certainly would have made being a member of the League more comfortable and removed any long term goals of ever wanting to leave.

There is a key difference. If rebels within the League did something, the OFS could send ships in for a "police action" and claim it was merely an internal thing. Of course, a lie. But who would argue?

If there was an actual secession and the navy came in, that could be viewed as an Eridani Edict violation by, for example, the GA, and they might argue that the people doing it were effectively criminals.

It's a lot less fun hurling down missiles on helpless civilians if stronger navy vessels can come along and just wipe you out.

I would hope that the League would not send OFS to a League Member system to address league political problemsprotect it. That would be a really bad message to send to the rest of the Members.

Hi cthia,

First, petitions by tiny fractions [>1%]of their states voters, however silly Obama was to say he took them seriously, are far different from their state legislatures passing popular acts of secession.

So far even crazy California hasn't been that stupid, and they were still smart enough to reject single payer, even before they thought they could get the feds to pay for half of it!

Read Shadow of Victory.

It's a doozy, and fascinating; with all kinds of interesting twists that you'll have fun speculating about, at least until spring of 2018, yet fills in some of the background to set up UH.

You'll like it, you'll like it. [if only I knew the Yiddish]

And maybe you'll be assimilated by it instead.

L

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:quote="cthia"Reminds me of the many states that petitioned the Obama administration with delusions of seceding.

.quote

You clearly don't understand the Solarian League and its obvious real world counterpart.

kzt wrote:He doesn't actually read the books. So I can't blame him for not grasping the details. But I have him on ignore because he doesn't actually read the books.

Only book I haven't read is the latest. I keep staring at it, but time, and married life, well...

I need to read them more than once. The in-depth backstory in which you speak, I tend not to assimilate until subsequent readings.

At any rate, I hope you have better success with the ignore list than I. Duckk, please look into it. Kzt has a right not to read any of my posts.

I shall read Shadow of Victory. Thanks for kind words about the book for a change.

You misunderstood Obama. He was saying that he took the fact that they wanted to secede seriously. He took it seriously that so many voters felt compelled, that they felt something was so broken enough to want to leave. He damn well should have taken that seriously. All politicians should take it seriously, whether they can actually secede or not, the fact that they want to... speaks volumes about our country.

That is why Trump was elected. The voters are so desperate that they'll vote for one of The Three Stooges for President or bust if they cannot secede. Something is broken in America. Obama took that seriously.

That is what Obama took seriously.

Hillary should have too.

Trump did. That is why he is President.

lyonheart wrote:Hi cthia,

First, petitions by tiny fractions [>1%]of their states voters, however silly Obama was to say he took them seriously, are far different from their state legislatures passing popular acts of secession.

So far even crazy California hasn't been that stupid, and they were still smart enough to reject single payer, even before they thought they could get the feds to pay for half of it!

Read Shadow of Victory.

It's a doozy, and fascinating; with all kinds of interesting twists that you'll have fun speculating about, at least until spring of 2018, yet fills in some of the background to set up UH.

You'll like it, you'll like it. [if only I knew the Yiddish]

And maybe you'll be assimilated by it instead.

L

cthia wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:quote="cthia"Reminds me of the many states that petitioned the Obama administration with delusions of seceding.

.quote

You clearly don't understand the Solarian League and its obvious real world counterpart.

kzt wrote:He doesn't actually read the books. So I can't blame him for not grasping the details. But I have him on ignore because he doesn't actually read the books.

Only book I haven't read is the latest. I keep staring at it, but time, and married life, well...

I need to read them more than once. The in-depth backstory in which you speak, I tend not to assimilate until subsequent readings.

At any rate, I hope you have better success with the ignore list than I. Duckk, please look into it. Kzt has a right not to read any of my posts.

Howdy MunroBurton,

Something to keep in mind is that the Executive Council or Assembly of Stars didn't object to Beowulf's announcement it was going to withdraw on legal grounds, but the sheer shock of ending its membership after roughly 700 years.

Which would put it's admission in the late 13th or early 14th century.

Although old textev states several founders had been independent star systems for over a thousand years, some new says the SL was founded in the ninth century PD, despite Beowulf apparently being a major contributor.

Getting back to the main point, the EC/AoS knew then and still knows that Beowulf's plebiscite is completely legal and correct according to the SL constitution, that is until the 3/4+ of the Executive Council get their new orders from the mandarins.

Furthermore, while I think the founders ensured they could easily quit, I don't think the OFS got fancy in the shell and protectorates, since they and their transtellar pardners were in control, and expected and intended to remain in control for forever, there was no way such clauses would ever be activated and they really didn't want to attract any attention by modifying them, it would make it pretty clear what they were really doing.

From the textev the four that had already sent their notices to Sol in July don't have SDF's like Beowulf, yet if the communications loop is at least 246 LY [30 days at 8,21 LY/day], the GA should be able to reach them far sooner than the SLN.

Time to go, I'll finish this when I'm not sogroggy.

L

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:Indeed.

Sorry I missed this post munroburton. Actually, I recall mention of some exasperated League personality, forget who, who questioned the possible legality of it. I don't recall hearing anything else of it and was waiting with baited breath.

It simply seems much too easy to secede IMO. What prevents systems from taking advantage of the League—in some laughable alternate reality where the League is not so corrupt and many resources are allocated to a world only to see it secede when they deem they no longer need the League?

Reminds me of the many states that petitioned the Obama administration with delusions of seceding.

.

Apparently, no one had attempted to leave before. The closest was Erewhon, which cancelled its application to become a full member and instead joined the Manticoran Alliance.

Someone mentioned Japan and the League of Nations - well, would Japan have been so quick to leave if the League of Nations had direct control of two hundred battleships? Thanks to the Eridani Edict, the League did carry out half a dozen military operations early in its history.

As for the legality of secession, what if the Solarian League constitution has something similar to Article 50 from the EU's Lisbon Treaty?

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-li ... le-50.html

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

Beowulf's constitution is older than the League's. Beowulf was a League founding member. It certainly wasn't ever subject to whatever loopholes OFS used to take control of independent verge systems, make them protectorates and then eventually members. In other words, any legal objections raised by the Mandarins using those as a basis might simply be invalid, inapplicable and unenforceable.

cthia wrote:You misunderstood Obama. He was saying that he took the fact that they wanted to secede seriously. He took it seriously that so many voters felt compelled, that they felt something was so broken enough to want to leave. He damn well should have taken that seriously. All politicians should take it seriously, whether they can actually secede or not, the fact that they want to... speaks volumes about our country.

That is why Trump was elected. The voters are so desperate that they'll vote for one of The Three Stooges for President or bust if they cannot secede. Something is broken in America. Obama took that seriously.

That is what Obama took seriously.

Hillary should have too.

Trump did. That is why he is President.

Unfortunately it appears Mr Trump was the ONLY one to take it seriously, none of the other dwarves (professional politicians) who ran did or do even now despite some of them being in Mr Trump's Cabinet or in the Congressional Leadership.

"This country needs an enema" (paraphrased) - Jack Nicholson as Joker in "Batman."

Our illustrious Duckk made a comment that got me to thinking along certain lines. He said that the SLN were not murderous idiots. Yet, if there is indeed no legal leg for them to stand on in opposition to Beowulf seceding, then on what grounds does the SLN attack Beowulf? If they are not murderous, then does that suggest that they might have found legal reasons that Beowulf are in the wrong? Because if they are legally in the wrong then does that not make Beowulf traitors? (And attacking traitors is not murderous.) Or does it suggest something more sinister like continued MAlign intervention?

Also, if the League can pull legal justification of Beowulf's intransigence out of its 800# ass, then would that fact incriminate the RMN in some way and suggest that they owe the League reparations for meddling???

Just asking.