GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

Readers wanting to see large number of very sharp minds tackling these exact questions should follow the Brexit debate in the Guardian, complete with the EU request for money.

cthia wrote:What was the final disposition of any legal complications of Beowulf seceding?

I don't mean to sidetrack a very interesting thread, but I have to wonder if the League actually has legal legs to stand on. It seems shortsighted of them not to insist on permanent League status of any system joining, especially if of their own accord. Of course, their arrogance may not have inserted such a clause. Yet, I'm left dumbstruck at how easily a member can secede, legally. I am not in any way on the League's side, but you all know I've always been the voice of reason, or unreason LOL, for fairness and for sake of conversation.

Let's say the League hadn't become the cesspool that they are now. Accepting a new member into League status must consist of a certain investment of League resources and it wouldn't be fair for a system to be allowed to secede after allocation of certain resources without a very good and legally acceptable reason. What if there is some sort of clause? Has textev stated one way or the other?

Legally, it seems possible that the League might have a licit leg to stand on. Not saying that they do, but legal maneuvering may indeed be the answer. On what grounds has Beowulf officially stated that they wish to secede? Could it all be blamed on Manticoran meddling?

phillies wrote:Readers wanting to see large number of very sharp minds tackling these exact questions should follow the Brexit debate in the Guardian, complete with the EU request for money.

cthia wrote:What was the final disposition of any legal complications of Beowulf seceding?

I don't mean to sidetrack a very interesting thread, but I have to wonder if the League actually has legal legs to stand on. It seems shortsighted of them not to insist on permanent League status of any system joining, especially if of their own accord. Of course, their arrogance may not have inserted such a clause. Yet, I'm left dumbstruck at how easily a member can secede, legally. I am not in any way on the League's side, but you all know I've always been the voice of reason, or unreason LOL, for fairness and for sake of conversation.

Let's say the League hadn't become the cesspool that they are now. Accepting a new member into League status must consist of a certain investment of League resources and it wouldn't be fair for a system to be allowed to secede after allocation of certain resources without a very good and legally acceptable reason. What if there is some sort of clause? Has textev stated one way or the other?

Legally, it seems possible that the League might have a licit leg to stand on. Not saying that they do, but legal maneuvering may indeed be the answer. On what grounds has Beowulf officially stated that they wish to secede? Could it all be blamed on Manticoran meddling?

I was thinking that. It's a can of worms which has been opened, is still opening and the implications are not fully known yet.

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Until we get more snippets from RFC, we won't know for sure, but if I were a leader of a SL member contemplating leaving it, the 'mandarins' would be the last to find out.

That is, there should be GA TG's in system long before that particular piece of mail ever reached Sol or Kolokoltsov.

So I'm less worried about the recent ex-members than the MAlign protectorate suckers.

So far, we know only Loomis has failed, the other 5 have succeeded of the dozen or so the MAlign have set up, with Kondrati near Maya being the only other named so far.

PUS [I love that acronym!] I. Kolokoltsov stated his belief that the GA couldn't break up their grand fleet as easily as the SLN could send a TF to those former members, which is grossly in error.

Just one or two SDP's [from the GA's current roughly 1200] etc would be overkill for the two BF squadrons to be sent, but I expect the GA to send a larger force so suitable detachments can be quickly made to send to the neighbors of the original requester, when they also choose to quit and join them, now they're certain protection will be quickly provided.

The detached TG's should also include at least one CLAC and munition ship besides suitable escorts and or screen as previously discussed.

One would assume larger TF's at the wormholes, with at least a couple squadrons of SDP's and CLAC's etc standing by for such requests.

By the time the mandarins find out what happened to their first TF's, they may have also lost another hundred members as well.

But by then they'll have worse troubles closer to home.

L

Which argues that only a fool would think that a strategy of sending the SLN to keep Core Worlds from seceding would work. PUS I. et al are arrogant, myopic, corrupt kleptocrats but they are not idiots. Surely, they realize that by attempting to coerce members systems, the SLN would invite RMN intervention. They can't believe that the RMN will be unable send smaller detachments of SDPs. Especially now with Haven helping out.

What would the RMN need to concentrate their heavy forces for? The SLN....seriously?

I am not saying that Gweon isn't arguing for the adoption of just that strategy. I am arguing that PUS I. at al have to be especially stupid to buy it. Well, they may be desperate enough to buy any pig in a poke at this point.

It just strikes me that the best chance for any of them to survive would be to find a soft landing for the League. Strong arming the membership isn't heading for a soft landing at all.

PeterZ wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Until we get more snippets from RFC, we won't know for sure, but if I were a leader of a SL member contemplating leaving it, the 'mandarins' would be the last to find out.

That is, there should be GA TG's in system long before that particular piece of mail ever reached Sol or Kolokoltsov.

So I'm less worried about the recent ex-members than the MAlign protectorate suckers.

So far, we know only Loomis has failed, the other 5 have succeeded of the dozen or so the MAlign have set up, with Kondrati near Maya being the only other named so far.

PUS [I love that acronym!] I. Kolokoltsov stated his belief that the GA couldn't break up their grand fleet as easily as the SLN could send a TF to those former members, which is grossly in error.

Just one or two SDP's [from the GA's current roughly 1200] etc would be overkill for the two BF squadrons to be sent, but I expect the GA to send a larger force so suitable detachments can be quickly made to send to the neighbors of the original requester, when they also choose to quit and join them, now they're certain protection will be quickly provided.

The detached TG's should also include at least one CLAC and munition ship besides suitable escorts and or screen as previously discussed.

One would assume larger TF's at the wormholes, with at least a couple squadrons of SDP's and CLAC's etc standing by for such requests.

By the time the mandarins find out what happened to their first TF's, they may have also lost another hundred members as well.

But by then they'll have worse troubles closer to home.

L

Which argues that only a fool would think that a strategy of sending the SLN to keep Core Worlds from seceding would work. PUS I. et al are arrogant, myopic, corrupt kleptocrats but they are not idiots. Surely, they realize that by attempting to coerce members systems, the SLN would invite RMN intervention. They can't believe that the RMN will be unable send smaller detachments of SDPs. Especially now with Haven helping out.

What would the RMN need to concentrate their heavy forces for? The SLN....seriously?

I am not saying that Gweon isn't arguing for the adoption of just that strategy. I am arguing that PUS I. at al have to be especially stupid to buy it. Well, they may be desperate enough to buy any pig in a poke at this point.

It just strikes me that the best chance for any of them to survive would be to find a soft landing for the League. Strong arming the membership isn't heading for a soft landing at all.

I agree Peter.

However, it may not work in whole, but perhaps in part. I'm certain the SLN would want it to work completely, which would be ideal. But I'm certain they would accept the tactic to simply stem the tide and slow the leak in the dam, not plug it. Until it can get a grip on things. I'm hard pressed to believe that that isn't exactly the strategy. To stem the tide until... or at least salvage something.

I think it has become a matter of "Damned if we do. Damned if we don't." The smell of fear and weakness is debilitating.

Besides, intimidation by whip is all the SLN knows, and browbeating its systems has been its MO for eons. What else is it to do, that won't also send the message that they are helpless, weak and afraid? They simply have to make an example out of a few systems. That is simply the nature of the beast, and I feel quite certain that a few examples will be made, in addition to Beowulf.

There is no way that the RMN can police every single system.

It reminds me of the U.S.'s realities with North Korea. The U.S.'s allies -- our sphere of responsibility, is within reach of N.K's missiles. Nothing the U.S. can do in the event of a strike on a U. S. ally but respond, after the fact.

Same tune with the Core Worlds and the SLN's rubber hammer. Problem for the Core Worlds is that a rubber hammer works quite well on a plastic nail.

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Which argues that only a fool would think that a strategy of sending the SLN to keep Core Worlds from seceding would work. PUS I. et al are arrogant, myopic, corrupt kleptocrats but they are not idiots. Surely, they realize that by attempting to coerce members systems, the SLN would invite RMN intervention. They can't believe that the RMN will be unable send smaller detachments of SDPs. Especially now with Haven helping out.

What would the RMN need to concentrate their heavy forces for? The SLN....seriously?

I am not saying that Gweon isn't arguing for the adoption of just that strategy. I am arguing that PUS I. at al have to be especially stupid to buy it. Well, they may be desperate enough to buy any pig in a poke at this point.

It just strikes me that the best chance for any of them to survive would be to find a soft landing for the League. Strong arming the membership isn't heading for a soft landing at all.

I agree Peter.

However, it may not work in whole, but perhaps in part. I'm certain the SLN would want it to work completely, which would be ideal. But I'm certain they would accept the tactic to simply stem the tide and slow the leak in the dam, not plug it. Until it can get a grip on things. I'm hard pressed to believe that that isn't exactly the strategy. To stem the tide until... or at least salvage something.

I think it has become a matter of "Damned if we do. Damned if we don't." The smell of fear and weakness is debilitating.

Besides, intimidation by whip is all the SLN knows, and browbeating its systems has been its MO for eons. What else is it to do, that won't also send the message that they are helpless, weak and afraid? They simply have to make an example out of a few systems. That is simply the nature of the beast, and I feel quite certain that a few examples will be made, in addition to Beowulf.

There is no way that the RMN can police every single system.

It reminds me of the U.S.'s realities with North Korea. The U.S.'s allies -- our sphere of responsibility, is within reach of N.K's missiles. Nothing the U.S. can do in the event of a strike on a U. S. ally but respond, after the fact.

Same tune with the Core Worlds and the SLN's rubber hammer. Problem for the Core Worlds is that a rubber hammer works quite well on a plastic nail.

How does strong arming one member world stem the tide of secessions? The first time it happens tells every member system that they are no longer sovereign star nations but Imperial Subjects to PUS I. et al and their minions in the Solarian League federal government.

All those Core worlds will know their sovereignty has just been flushed down the toilet. We're not speaking of the SL representatives, but the representatives of their national local governments. The government that has made all the decision about that star nation within their solar system.

Will even fat and happy national governments be happy about losing their autonomy? No way in hell. If the League sends the SLN, the leadership dies a horrible death and there is no hope for the League to control any part of the rump states that succeed the League. That's perfect for the RF, but not so good for the current League leadership.

PeterZ wrote:How does strong arming one member world stem the tide of secessions? The first time it happens tells every member system that they are no longer sovereign star nations but Imperial Subjects to PUS I. et al and their minions in the Solarian League federal government.

You're confusing Reality(tm) with the Mandarin's world-view. Events will play out exactly as you predict. The Mandarin's don't think it will because it would work on them.

D'oh! -Facepalm-
I stand corrected.

Hello Robert_A_Woodward,

Excellent point!

I suspect this is the justification to get Kolokoltsov to agree to the attack on Beowulf; as I suspect at least 1 or 2 of the other mandarins, if not all four to be MAlign agents or under their influence; which certainly makes sense, since smashing the GA's only remaining high tech industrialized star system would be a strategic victory of the first magnitude NTM justifying very high BF losses.

Hinting that Beowulf is the only place making the GA's G- awful missiles might be all that's necessary, and if it takes 850-1000 SD's, get busy and send them.

One wonders who the poor sap the MAlign intends to have in command this time; OTOH, since it no longer matters, maybe they'll let the SLN do it their way.

Kind of like Jefferson Davis putting Robert E Lee in command of all confederate armies when the war was obviously lost.

Desperate to staunch the secessionist movement, the mandarins have ignored the potential disastrous downsides of their [mainly Kolokoltsov's] decisions, but the fallout from this one should begin landing fairly quickly, but it will also be heard around (NTM across) the whole of interstellar humanity [IH], thus demonstrating just how far they're willing to go to preserve their power, so the avalanche of secession the mandarins all feared will then cut loose and the GA will be hard up to supply the protection requests as quickly as they come in.

The mandarins clear brutal willingness to accept possible EE violations, even though they personally evidently intended none, cannot avoid their responsibility and guilt this time, whatever new 'front' government is officially formed.

Since they ordered it all done I'm curious if any have plans in place to leave before they get lynched (since those may be the MAlign agents or shills), quite aside from the results that will trigger their temple's collapse as surely as Samson did.

Very interesting times indeed.

L

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I wonder what Captain Gweon told PUS I. Kolokoltsov the Manties real reason for their belligerence. That real reason and his strategy beyond commerce raiding? This from chapter 59 in Shadow of Victory.

“In the meantime,” Kolokoltsov continued, “one of Admiral Kingsford’s intelligence people, a Captain Gweon, has produced a very interesting analysis of the real reason Manticore and Haven were so determined to get Beowulf into their corner. It makes interesting reading, and I’d like you all to consider it between now and tomorrow.” He smiled thinly. “If Captain Gweon’s right, then it could just be that there’s a quicker alternative to Admiral Kingsford’s commerce raiding when it comes to bloody in the Manties’ nose.”
(snip)

The odds are high that the analysis is a fraud (after all, we know who Gweon really reports to). However, it occurs to me that Gweon or the Malign analysts that actually wrote the report might have realized that Beowulf could be making the high tech equipment that Manticore no longer can. In which case, this would give extra reason for a strike on Beowulf.

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Which argues that only a fool would think that a strategy of sending the SLN to keep Core Worlds from seceding would work. PUS I. et al are arrogant, myopic, corrupt kleptocrats but they are not idiots. Surely, they realize that by attempting to coerce members systems, the SLN would invite RMN intervention. They can't believe that the RMN will be unable send smaller detachments of SDPs. Especially now with Haven helping out.

What would the RMN need to concentrate their heavy forces for? The SLN....seriously?

I am not saying that Gweon isn't arguing for the adoption of just that strategy. I am arguing that PUS I. at al have to be especially stupid to buy it. Well, they may be desperate enough to buy any pig in a poke at this point.

It just strikes me that the best chance for any of them to survive would be to find a soft landing for the League. Strong arming the membership isn't heading for a soft landing at all.

I agree Peter.

However, it may not work in whole, but perhaps in part. I'm certain the SLN would want it to work completely, which would be ideal. But I'm certain they would accept the tactic to simply stem the tide and slow the leak in the dam, not plug it. Until it can get a grip on things. I'm hard pressed to believe that that isn't exactly the strategy. To stem the tide until... or at least salvage something.

I think it has become a matter of "Damned if we do. Damned if we don't." The smell of fear and weakness is debilitating.

Besides, intimidation by whip is all the SLN knows, and browbeating its systems has been its MO for eons. What else is it to do, that won't also send the message that they are helpless, weak and afraid? They simply have to make an example out of a few systems. That is simply the nature of the beast, and I feel quite certain that a few examples will be made, in addition to Beowulf.

There is no way that the RMN can police every single system.

It reminds me of the U.S.'s realities with North Korea. The U.S.'s allies -- our sphere of responsibility, is within reach of N.K's missiles. Nothing the U.S. can do in the event of a strike on a U. S. ally but respond, after the fact.

Same tune with the Core Worlds and the SLN's rubber hammer. Problem for the Core Worlds is that a rubber hammer works quite well on a plastic nail.

PeterZ wrote:How does strong arming one member world stem the tide of secessions? The first time it happens tells every member system that they are no longer sovereign star nations but Imperial Subjects to PUS I. et al and their minions in the Solarian League federal government.

All those Core worlds will know their sovereignty has just been flushed down the toilet. We're not speaking of the SL representatives, but the representatives of their national local governments. The government that has made all the decision about that star nation within their solar system.

Will even fat and happy national governments be happy about losing their autonomy? No way in hell. If the League sends the SLN, the leadership dies a horrible death and there is no hope for the League to control any part of the rump states that succeed the League. That's perfect for the RF, but not so good for the current League leadership.

Glad you asked. It is the human element yet again. And again. And again. And again. The human element will never desert the human, even if ignored!

Most namely, cut off the head of one and it concentrates the efforts of the others on survival. On immediate survival. Not the help that the GA promises down the road! Just like law enforcement agencies promise protection, only to find their informant, etc., dead! Retribution never helps the dead man.

The GA can promise help, but help won't matter if it comes a day late—a trashed infrastructure, system and lives—and a dollar short.

I'll borrow one of Imaginos's posts in another thread. It seems so appropos...

Imaginos1892 wrote: "We'll never talk!"

"I wouldn't be so sure about that. Ya see, you boys have a problem. There's two of you, and I only need one answer."

or


Cut off the head of one and the others follow your message quite clearly.

[

Cut off the head of one and the others follow your message quite clearly.[/quote]


Sorry for cutting off so much but we have so many restrictions on double and triple quotes. I'm new enough not to know how to get around it.

Sure, there's no way the GA could protect loads of worlds. But then again, neither can the Sollies.

If they send around task forces, the GA can just take them.

Even more to the point, if the Sollies smash down on a former protectorate...there is no long any fig leaf on the Eridani Doctrine. They can be punished. Perhaps declared pirates...and you know what that means.

Or, to make the point better, if a world is smashed down for the betterment of a major corp., go the the world of the supercorp and destroy everything in orbit. Beowulf and others probably know the big shots. Set marines to their houses. Ship the big shots out to the worlds they've destroyed as their reparations.

That will stop a lot of the mess.

Remember that the GA has enough of an advantage in armaments that they could easily shatter the orbital landscape around any of the rich planets. And that includes Earth.