Draining Clyntahn's mind

Dilandu wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Actually, if the demonstration arranged for Clyntahn had been arranged weeks earlier, he could have been interrogated and been giving answers by telling him that as long as he was talking, his execution would be deferred -- and his actions might help when he finally faced God.

This wouldn't work. As soon as Clyntahn would came to his sences enough to understood what they want from him - he would immediately understood that he still have some value. And he would probably refuse to answer unless he would be spared.

If he claims up, you hang him immediately. He stays unhung only as long as he keeps talking (new, verifiable information).

I had actually hoped that his death would be faked, that Merlin and Nimue would arrange for him to survive his hanging only to wake up in Nimue's Cave after 20 or even 100 years and realize that he is useless, that no one supports him, that no one is willing to serve him and without a friend in the world. A beggar in the wilderness screaming that he is Zhaspahr Clyntahn, Grand Inquisitor of the Church of God Awaiting, only to be laughed at or pitied for the madman he obviously is. Indeed, he could have the neural infrastructure installed afterwards in the Cave (without cannibalizing parts of his nervous system since they'd have the time to make up the necessary knowledge and equipment) and then have is gestalt uploaded into the matrix with OWL and Nahrmahn. That way they have all his secrets available and could spend subjective decades and centuries interrogating him.

But it seems the Inner Circle didn't want to indulge in any true cruelty and torment Clyntahn beyond what Merlin and Nimue did to shatter his certainty and faith in God. They made him realize that after all the cruel things he did in God's name, it had all been for nothing. But I agree that he should have been interrogated for whatever he knew about the Temple's secrets.

If they had gone this route, wouldn't Clyntahn's personality have been in stuck in the same Virtual Reality server with Nahrmahn's personality? I think Nahrmahn would have staged a revolt before submitting to this!

The denisens upstairs in the temple may well not have known what was in the basement. IIRC, the entry was obscure and nondescript and although the Wylsyns knew of it, few, if any others did.

Don

-

n7axw wrote:... may well not have known what was in the basement...

-

How do you know unless you ask?

Henry Brown wrote:If they had gone this route, wouldn't Clyntahn's personality have been in stuck in the same Virtual Reality server with Nahrmahn's personality? I think Nahrmahn would have staged a revolt before submitting to this!

I imagine that they would build a different virtual world for Clyntahn (on another server if necessary), one that would probably be FAR less comfortable than Nahrman's

jackburtonjr wrote:Advanced drugs, combined with such things as hypnosis, do not require or demand a willing, compliant subject. Add to that mix a high tech ability to discern truth from lies and it gives a the ability to gain info from anyone.

Father Paityr had his verifier, the Stone of Scheuler. With a foolproof lie detector torture becomes an effective way to extract information. They refuse to speak, you hurt them. They answer and lie, you hurt them. Their only way out is to tell the truth. You just have to be careful, as you ask the questions, not to allow them enough wiggle room to be honest in the things they actually say without telling the whole truth. Or, as you suggested, employ drugs that diminish or eliminate the capacity to lie (in the latter case no torture would be necessary at all).

Clyntahn probably knew nothing about the millennial return of the Archangels. Otherwise when he was brooding in his cell near the end, he would've contemplated with glee how Charis and the rest of the heretics would be crushed the day Langhorne returned to restore God's dominion. And he probably would've dropped some ominous sounding hints he figured no one else would get. But he knows a lot of other stuff that might prove useful. They should've interrogated him. Of course maybe they did, and he just doesn't remember it. Truth drugs may cause short term memory loss.

ecortez wrote:Father Paityr had his verifier, the Stone of Scheuler. With a foolproof lie detector torture becomes an effective way to extract information. They refuse to speak, you hurt them. They answer and lie, you hurt them. Their only way out is to tell the truth. You just have to be careful, as you ask the questions, not to allow them enough wiggle room to be honest in the things they actually say without telling the whole truth. Or, as you suggested, employ drugs that diminish or eliminate the capacity to lie (in the latter case no torture would be necessary at all).

Small question: If you have a completely reliable lie detector, why do you need torture?

Interrogation doesn't work if you cannot offer the interrogated something in exchange. Clyntahn knew he was a dead man. Even if you tortured him, he knew that at the end of the day he would still be killed; no matter how good your tools are at verifying what he says, there is no incentive for him to ever tell the truth.

And, in the meantime, you're sinking to his lows by employing torture. Why compromise yourself in that way, when there is no gain?

Torture works when the victim knows that the pain will end if he tells the truth.

Yes, Clyntahn would know that he was a "dead man" no matter what he said, but there's a difference between a "quick death" and a "long and painful death".

The E wrote:

ecortez wrote:Father Paityr had his verifier, the Stone of Scheuler. With a foolproof lie detector torture becomes an effective way to extract information. They refuse to speak, you hurt them. They answer and lie, you hurt them. Their only way out is to tell the truth. You just have to be careful, as you ask the questions, not to allow them enough wiggle room to be honest in the things they actually say without telling the whole truth. Or, as you suggested, employ drugs that diminish or eliminate the capacity to lie (in the latter case no torture would be necessary at all).

Small question: If you have a completely reliable lie detector, why do you need torture?

Interrogation doesn't work if you cannot offer the interrogated something in exchange. Clyntahn knew he was a dead man. Even if you tortured him, he knew that at the end of the day he would still be killed; no matter how good your tools are at verifying what he says, there is no incentive for him to ever tell the truth.

And, in the meantime, you're sinking to his lows by employing torture. Why compromise yourself in that way, when there is no gain?

The problem with this line of effort is that Caleb and the Empire of Charis are the GOOD GUYS. There is no ticking time bomb of WMD that is going to go off right now if the information is not obtained immediately. And since Merlin knows where the tunnel escape from the Temple comes out that underground route can be followed back to the temple to help determine what is hiding under the temple without having to volunteer for the gutter.