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GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:03 pm

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kzt wrote:You don't really have to understand how something works to make effective use of it. You just have to understand what it does and what it can't do. Last I knew nobody at the apple store is making you take tests in semiconductor physics or verify your degree in RF engineering before allowing you to buy an iPhone, but people seem to do OK with them anyhow.

Most people seem to do "ok" with an iPhone. But if you are going to be using iPhones to go into battle, "just getting by" with an "ok" grade is not acceptable in the RMN, but the fact of the matter is... everyone just can not learn the more advanced features offered by Apple's product. Heck, many people have problems with smart phones in general much less an iPhone. But we digress from a very inert analogy.

There are some very advanced subjects being taught at the Academy which require prerequisites that would not be broached -- or generally offered at all -- at poor universities on underdeveloped planets. Remember, even Honor had to be tutored and she has an advanced IQ.

I suppose a slot for the Saganami Marine Detachment would be more acceptable.

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Last edited by cthia on Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:04 pm

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Totally agree, Cthia. Set the bar high but open the applications to all who qualify. If the GA honestly admit the qualified best the Verge have to offer, both the Verge and the GA are served well. Heck, even offering a remedial year or two on Manticore or Haven to bring up those who are close to qualifying accomplishes the same thing.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:08 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Totally agree, Cthia. Set the bar high but open the applications to all who qualify. If the GA honestly admit the qualified best the Verge have to offer, both the Verge and the GA are served well. Heck, even offering a remedial year or two on Manticore or Haven to bring up those who are close to qualifying accomplishes the same thing.

Absolutely. I was going to recommend a stint at a two-year college to bring one up to speed. A strategy that is often applied here on earth of the present before applying to the better universities.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:14 pm

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cthia wrote:Remember, even Honor had to be tutored and she has an advanced IQ.


And the education in the Star Empire is second to none.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:50 pm

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cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:Remember, even Honor had to be tutored and she has an advanced IQ.


And the education in the Star Empire is second to none.



Essentially the navy prefers to educate people on its own. The techs all go to school and are trained on the equipment they use. As they become expert, they move up the ranks.

Yes, there are some subjects that might be a bit more "optional" but keep in mind Honor was preparing to be an officer. They are expected to have a broader background. And he specialty was tactics.

We've seen atrogator officers. They probably were the ones who actually did the tutoring.

We should also note a really high degree of automation, however. In countless battles, operations officers assigned targets to different ships. Think about how complicated things had to be in the battle against Filareta.

He had hundreds of ships and Honor's people had to assign targets to every one of her hundreds of ships. There had to be some way to assign them and pass the targets along. From what
I've read along the way, a lot of the processes had to be more or less automatic.

People had to learn how to use the systems and they certainly had people able to repair them who understood even better all the inner workings.

Remember how Wanderman came up with a quick fix in Honor Among Enemies? He understood the system.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:25 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:Remember, even Honor had to be tutored and she has an advanced IQ.


And the education in the Star Empire is second to none.
ldwechsler wrote:Essentially the navy prefers to educate people on its own. The techs all go to school and are trained on the equipment they use. As they become expert, they move up the ranks.

Yes, there are some subjects that might be a bit more "optional" but keep in mind Honor was preparing to be an officer. They are expected to have a broader background. And he specialty was tactics.

We've seen atrogator officers. They probably were the ones who actually did the tutoring.

We should also note a really high degree of automation, however. In countless battles, operations officers assigned targets to different ships. Think about how complicated things had to be in the battle against Filareta.

He had hundreds of ships and Honor's people had to assign targets to every one of her hundreds of ships. There had to be some way to assign them and pass the targets along. From what
I've read along the way, a lot of the processes had to be more or less automatic.

People had to learn how to use the systems and they certainly had people able to repair them who understood even better all the inner workings.

Remember how Wanderman came up with a quick fix in Honor Among Enemies? He understood the system.
My bold to call attention.

That is exactly what I was referring to because PeterZ's initial post mentioned the Crusher.

I remembered coming across this during The Crusher thread and bookmarked it...

/profile/Steve-Miller-187
Steve Miller, USAF Vietnam Vet; 173 Missions; Military History Author & Career Service Mentor
Updated Feb 4, 2016

I do volunteer military service advising with local high school counseling offices and college career centers. Quite a few high school students inquire about service academy appointments. The counseling offices know that if a teenager is to stand any kind of chance in getting a service academy appointment, they need to get me involved as early as possible - like in the 9th grade. When kids wait until they are in the 10th or 11th grade to reach out to me, and they haven't started any upfront planning or leg work thus far, the "mountain" to climb in preparing to apply is really steep; this is especially so if the youngster hopes to go straight from high school graduation into an academy.

I also encourage middle school counseling offices to send kids my way.  It is almost impossible to start your academy appointment efforts too soon.  Using myself as an example, I knew in grade school I wanted to be my family's 4th generation military serviceman.  Because I wanted to fly, and I would need a 4-year college degree to become a pilot, I decided I may as well go to a service academy; so, I contacted my Congressman in 7th grade to learn what I needed to do to get an appointment.
Tom Stagliano hit the nail right on the head about your local Congressman and/or Senator.  All U.S. legislators get bombarded with kids seeking an appointment.  Although there's no Federal Law to dictate a legislator's selection methods or criteria, let's face it, we're in a society where many people are quick to cry "foul" if they think their kid got ripped-off in the academy appointment process.  To that end, all of the Congressmen and Senators maintain an appointment preparation package to keep the appointment process as transparent as possible.

All of the service academies are tough to get into.  Aside from the U.S. Military Academy, the Naval Academy, and the Air Force Academy, keep in mind there are other options, such as: the U.S. Coast Guard Academy, U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, and two state-sponsored Merchant Marine Academies (one in New York, and another in California).  Additionally, there are some very prestigious private universities who operate as a civilian service academy, such as: The Citadel, Norwich University and the Virgina Military Institute.

In order to become a top-rated appointee, do two things:  Start the preparation process in middle school, or 9th grade, as a minimum.  The second thing to do is "cast-the-net-wide," meaning  seek an appointment from as many schools as possible.


There simply must be something there "to work with" in keeping with the level and pace of instruction that one will encounter at the academy. You cannot slow the entire class down because of inadequately educated students.

An outfit like the Naval Academy simply has to require a certain base education and excellence or people will be failing or dropping out like flies.

And textev stated that the RMN had to accelerate the classes in order to graduate more officers to feed Bupers' already ravenous appetite. IOW, class instruction that is already proceeding quite quickly goes into overdrive. The average Verge student wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell to keep up.

That applies to any ole academy. Now consider The Royal Manticoran Naval Academy that is the premiere naval academy in the entire galaxy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:54 pm

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"The bottom line is that it is damned hard to get in.  The Naval Academy is ALWAYS in the top five of the hardest schools to get into as judged yearly by U.S. News and World Reports Magazine.  Each year the Academy gets about 18,000 applications.  Only about 1400 are invited to attend.  That ratio makes getting into Harvard look like a cake walk."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:25 pm

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The point isn't to admit everyone into the service academies, it is to admit the best or most determined. The academies may hold spots open for an Alliance system's entrants, but those entrants have to be the best students available. The SEM applicants may have an inherent advantage, but so what? Anyone capable of overcoming that advantage by SEM applicants deserves a spot. I doubt it will ever come to the academies holding spots for SEM applicants, but would be a good problem to have.
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:48 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The point isn't to admit everyone into the service academies, it is to admit the best or most determined. The academies may hold spots open for an Alliance system's entrants, but those entrants have to be the best students available. The SEM applicants may have an inherent advantage, but so what? Anyone capable of overcoming that advantage by SEM applicants deserves a spot. I doubt it will ever come to the academies holding spots for SEM applicants, but would be a good problem to have.



We should remember that there are a lot of really smart people even on planets considered backward. The American Founding Fathers were in a "backwoods" country but we had a Franklin and a Jefferson and quite a few others with talent.

People can learn and bright ones can learn very fast. The key subjects involved would be science and math. Intensive coaching could help prepare students to compete.

Let us remember that Grayson was such a backwoods and its naval leaders turned out quite well. Should I mention Abigail Hearns?
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Re: GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions
Post by cthia   » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:26 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The point isn't to admit everyone into the service academies, it is to admit the best or most determined. The academies may hold spots open for an Alliance system's entrants, but those entrants have to be the best students available. The SEM applicants may have an inherent advantage, but so what? Anyone capable of overcoming that advantage by SEM applicants deserves a spot. I doubt it will ever come to the academies holding spots for SEM applicants, but would be a good problem to have.



We should remember that there are a lot of really smart people even on planets considered backward. The American Founding Fathers were in a "backwoods" country but we had a Franklin and a Jefferson and quite a few others with talent.

People can learn and bright ones can learn very fast. The key subjects involved would be science and math. Intensive coaching could help prepare students to compete.

Let us remember that Grayson was such a backwoods and its naval leaders turned out quite well. Should I mention Abigail Hearns?


Of course there are. There are also smart people in third world countries - some of which apply themselves even better than many of their american counterparts. But being smart and being "adequately prepared" for a specific rigorous course is two different balls of wax.

I never questioned anyone's "smartness" or inherent IQ out in the Verge. Simply that they have not been adequately prepared. Admitting students who are not properly prepared isn't fair to the students who are, the professors who are charged with instructing them or the mission statement of the academy.

Grayson was not the typical backwards planet. They certainly were NOT average. Also, Grayson had benefit of some off world education. Certainly, there may be some above average students in the Verge. However, I wouldn't imagine that the average Havenite student would be appropriate for the Royal Manticoran Academy, let alone the average Verge student.

Abigail Hearns is the daughter of a Steadholder who has the financial means and proper motivation, support and upbringing to be properly educated. She would also have benefited from proper counseling to the appropriate courses of study, and even she was taken under Honor's wing -- who was quite vested in her career, much as Admiral Courvosier was with hers.

Do you really think that the average student from poor communities and countries would excel if given enrollment at Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Cambridge, Oxford or our own naval academy? It wouldn't even be fair to them.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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