GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

Jonathan_S wrote:(I say 'true' DDM or MDM because the MAlign at least didn't have baffles when they designed the Cataphracts. Those appears to be true staged missiles and much longer (and with smaller warhead) than an DDM of equivalent performance would be. I think the distance between the 1st stage's normal drive impellers and the 2nd stage's CM drive impellers helps prevent the CM impellers from getting wrecked -- but that means a 3 stage version would be very long to maintain that same separation between the 2nd and 3rd stage drives)

When designing system defense missiles, size is no problem. A three or four stage Cataphract could be built just as easily as a two stage, ship launched missile. There would be no particular reason to down-size any stage to a CM drive so no particular reason for a down-sized warhead. it should be possible to even match the output of the MK-16G and the corresponding upgrade to MK-23s and Apollo (and Apollo-SD.)

The pods for such missiles (if they are even put in pods) would be bigger than a LAC or DD, but it would be easier and cheaper than building a ship of equal size.

Technodyne would be happy to sell as many missiles based on up-scaled Cataphract designs as they can build. "Genuine" MDSDMs with either Havenite capacitor tech or Manticoran/Grayson fusion tech would be cheaper and more effective, but if they are willing to lose market shares to Technodyne and Erewhon and Maya, and the Andermani in a fruitless attempt to protect a "secret" only their bank balances will suffer -- probably.

Highly effective System Defense Missiles are a stabilizing tech. They make it far harder to attack or effectively threaten a system with them, which means they don't need a large and effective mobile fleet to counter threats.

A system protected by 400 fortresses and 10 million 4-stage SDMs is a whole lot less of threat to their neighbors than that same system with 1200 SD(P)s and 800,000 MDM missile pods loaded in magazines and fast transports.

Theemile wrote:On top of insane financing offered by Manty corps and secured by the Manty crown, will be the cost of the machines themselves. Over the war, the scale of LACs being built was nearly insane, with 10s or 100s of thousands of LACs being built by both sides in less than 10 years. Applying that same engineering and keep it for the export LACs, and the cost of a squadron, basing, and spare parts should be far less than what a single old fashioned LAC can be purchased for elsewhere, making a wing of LACS a VERY enticing proposition that simply cannot be provided by anyone outside the GA.

I think you have the relative pricing of export grade LACs a little low. I can see a lot of very interesting discussions in the board room as Verge and former protectorate systems start considering their options for upgrading their defenses.

A wing of LACs for the cost of a Frigate? The previous build was closer to 3 LACs for the cost of a Frigate. The LACs have more firepower each than the Frigate, and appears to be similar a Rampart. The DD design is the same upfront cost as a used Rampart (OLD SLN design), but the maintenance cost are 30% higher, with 10% less manning cost. That DD has specs that are better than our rivals antiquated Cruiser. Long discussions as staffers pull out spreadsheets to compare the specs and costs of three or four different system defense missile systems.

Not sure that the GA will build export versions for light hyper-capable warships. More likely they will simply sell legacy RHN units and upgrade with new build units. They will need to expand their light combatant numbers to address their new mission of commerce protection. The cost would be pretty low; just cleaning out the databases and transporting them to their final destination.

I can hear the sales pitch, "Yup, these units held off the Royal Manticoran Navy for 40 years. Train the crew well and Heaven help the pirate or FF unit smaller than a Battle Cruiser that wants to dance. And if you see Battle Cruisers, lead them back home to meet your pods and LACs."

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:(I say 'true' DDM or MDM because the MAlign at least didn't have baffles when they designed the Cataphracts. Those appears to be true staged missiles and much longer (and with smaller warhead) than an DDM of equivalent performance would be. I think the distance between the 1st stage's normal drive impellers and the 2nd stage's CM drive impellers helps prevent the CM impellers from getting wrecked -- but that means a 3 stage version would be very long to maintain that same separation between the 2nd and 3rd stage drives)

When designing system defense missiles, size is no problem. A three or four stage Cataphract could be built just as easily as a two stage, ship launched missile. There would be no particular reason to down-size any stage to a CM drive so no particular reason for a down-sized warhead. it should be possible to even match the output of the MK-16G and the corresponding upgrade to MK-23s and Apollo (and Apollo-SD.)

The pods for such missiles (if they are even put in pods) would be bigger than a LAC or DD, but it would be easier and cheaper than building a ship of equal size.

Technodyne would be happy to sell as many missiles based on up-scaled Cataphract designs as they can build. "Genuine" MDSDMs with either Havenite capacitor tech or Manticoran/Grayson fusion tech would be cheaper and more effective, but if they are willing to lose market shares to Technodyne and Erewhon and Maya, and the Andermani in a fruitless attempt to protect a "secret" only their bank balances will suffer -- probably.

Still, while I agree system defense missiles can be arbitrarily large having to have massive pods does make it harder for semi-trusted government to package those system defense missile for offensive use. You can't build all that effective an SD(P), or even merchant based pod layer, if your pods are, as you speculate, approaching the size of a DD. And certainly can't fit broadside tubes for missiles that long.
(Which is basically what kzt was saying, now that I read further down the thread)

OTOH there are potential long term diplomatic issues with only offering truely inferior weapons to potential trading partners -- can make them just a touch resentful and potentially more willing to stab you in the back should a good opportunity arise. So maybe forcing them to stick with black powder gatlings because you won't sell them the more mobile maxim guns isn't a great idea - despite the short term limitations it puts on any expansionistic warlord dreams they might harbor.

I wonder if the RMN or RHN will begin offering Saganami Island slots to Verge systems that want to join the Old Manticoran Alliance? That old alliance involving the Andermani Empire and those systems between Manticore and Grayson. I can see that template used to model the economic relationships between the GA nations and Verge and former protectorate nations. Offering slots to officers for a broader version of the Crusher and midshipmen for a more introductory naval education would a be good way to keep the RMN officer corps from becoming insular like the SLN. Involving officers from the different navies to teach at the respective naval colleges would seem almost necessary.

In any case, doing those things would improve relationships with all those newly independent star nations. Who knows, they may actually get some fraction of Core and Shell worlds that were on the fence about Manticore initially.

Jonathan_S wrote:Still, while I agree system defense missiles can be arbitrarily large having to have massive pods does make it harder for semi-trusted government to package those system defense missile for offensive use. ...

OTOH there are potential long term diplomatic issues with only offering truely inferior weapons to potential trading partners -- can make them just a touch resentful and potentially more willing to stab you in the back should a good opportunity arise. ...

There wouldn't necessarily be anything "inferior" about huge system defense missiles just because they don't have baffles or micro-fusion power. The inability to adapt those missiles to ship-board (offensive) use is just a byproduct of a system buying Technodyne MDSDMs instead of Erewhon ERSDMs or Andermani or Havenite MDSDMs. Buying Manticoran Export-Apollo-SD models (with Light-speed-only control links(?)) with Moriarity/Mycroft control modules would be top-of-the-line and adaptable to ship-board missile designs.

It won't take particularly long for competitors to match Manticoran miniaturization tech, etc and build high-end MDSDM and/or ship-board missile systems that can compete with Apollo/KHII -- even the FTL control links. The Solarian tech base is more than capable of duplicating everything Manticore has -- eventually. That tech base in the Core worlds isn't going to vanish just because the League breaks up.

I think Jonathan and kzt's points have quite a bit of merit. Selling Havenite capacitor based MDSDMs for use in pods organized around a lower tech Moriarty concept will be quite effective for a decade or two. Backing that up with export designed LACs using fission plants but lower automation provides for an effective pure systems defense package. It would take quite a few hyper-capable warships to crack that nut.

If then the GA focuses on exporting legacy Havenite CAs, CLs and DDs with pre-GA Havenite ERMs, their new customers would not be capable of sufficient force projection to overcome their neighbors stout systems defenses. Should those customers complain, the GA can simply offer the complainers full membership in the GA and the responsibility to attack the SLN and be attacked by them attendant with that membership. Oh, btw, that also means enmity with the Mesan Alignment wherever they may be hiding.

I don't see how the GA could not err on the side of providing too effective a systems defense package to emerging star nations than packages that are overly cautious in guarding technology. That balance would lean slightly or perhaps more than slightly towards securing as many emerging systems as humanly possible. The peace and stability that would generate would be worth the risk. Using legacy Havenite tech would be ideal for that purpose.

PeterZ wrote:I wonder if the RMN or RHN will begin offering Saganami Island slots to Verge systems that want to join the Old Manticoran Alliance? That old alliance involving the Andermani Empire and those systems between Manticore and Grayson. I can see that template used to model the economic relationships between the GA nations and Verge and former protectorate nations. Offering slots to officers for a broader version of the Crusher and midshipmen for a more introductory naval education would a be good way to keep the RMN officer corps from becoming insular like the SLN. Involving officers from the different navies to teach at the respective naval colleges would seem almost necessary.

In any case, doing those things would improve relationships with all those newly independent star nations. Who knows, they may actually get some fraction of Core and Shell worlds that were on the fence about Manticore initially.

Of course I could be wrong, but I wouldn't think that the average Verge applicant would be qualified Saganami Island material. The Verge is underdeveloped and poor, and one's level of education from an underdeveloped area is generally in keeping. Perhaps not one's potential, but even so I would imagine a significant amount of remedial education would be necessary before ready for Saganami Island lest watering down the Island's great reputation is your goal. Heck, I wouldn't imagine even an above average Verge applicant to be ideal.

You don't really have to understand how something works to make effective use of it. You just have to understand what it does and what it can't do. Last I knew nobody at the apple store is making you take tests in semiconductor physics or verify your degree in RF engineering before allowing you to buy an iPhone, but people seem to do OK with them anyhow.