GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

Theemile wrote:
I think you are right, the Export LAC is probably going to look more like the RHN Cimmeterre Beta, with RMN updates, and some systems downgraded to export level to protect any secrets and advanced technologies.

And the Havenites would be smart if they start exploring economic opportunities in the Andermani and Manty spheres - they suddenly have access to a market 2x the size of the one they had before, access to the MMM and IMM, and have multiple holes (SL embargo and Manticore station destruction) in the overall economy they can fill.

If Silesian and Rembrandt Trade Union shipyards were smart, they would license the export LAC design ASAP and start churning them out en-mass. Tied with Manty financial backing, we may soon see corporate DBs following about 2 days behind Manty taskforces. Its shuttle deposits a well groomed man with a winning smile, who confidently says "So I hear you have a system self defense problem - do I have a solution for you!" Days later, a pre-arranged freighter fleet arrives with a complete system self defense package

Here's the thing that's really gonna make the new Verge governments' jaws drop. That slick salesman/woman will also offer finance packages for everything from just the new LACs to new/additional orbital yards and resource extraction products.

"Say, What?!?" says the new star nation Chief Executive.

"That's right", smiles the sales person, "the interest rate on the offer is correct. We have to take into account your relative unproven financial history. Our consortium is offering Landing Imperial Issue rate + plus 5% risk premium. That assumes your government signs the Manticoran Alliance Economic Accord. These would be regulations consistent with those that govern all Manticoran Alliance members, like the Protectorship of Grayson. The risk premium will be higher, much higher as well as including much more restrictive covenants, if you chose not to adopt those regulations."

"But.....that rate is nearly half of what Pudder Mockers Limited offered for a couple of hospital facilities we were considering last year", the Chief Executive continued.

"Medical infrastructure?" asks the salesperson. "Well, Lady Harrington has decided to reduce the risk premium for loans she issues on medical infrastructure to 2%. Of course, the plans have to meet the stringent requirements approved by Dr. Allyson Beneton-Rameriez y Chou."

"Of the Beowulf Beneton-Rameriez y Chous?"

"Well, Lady Allison is the Duchess' mother after all."

"So we get access to defensive weapons more capable on a ton for ton basis than anything the SLN has. We get access to bleeding edge Beowulf quality medical technology. We get access resources to actually become economically independent from ANYONE including Manticore and the rate to finance all of this is between a third and half of the rate we have been getting from the Solarian League?", the Chief Execute repeats in a manner that expects a very heavy shoe to fall on his head.

"Well, yes, but if you think you can get a better rate elsewhere, please feel free to wait. I know Klaus Hauptman sent out his factors to this area as well. His group is a bit more well versed on commercial shipping systems than ours. I will add that our relationship with Grayson Skydomes lets us compete quite well on hazardous habitat environments, like moons. In any case, I'm sure you won't find our competitors' rates better than ours, but feel free to wait. My next appointment is in half an hour", the sales person says as she reaches for the delicious local tea the Chief Executive offered her. "By the way, who would I talk to about finding a supplier for this delightful beverage? Might your planet have something similar in a cocoa?"

PeterZ wrote:The RMN would see a heavy reliance on LACs as an effective and cost efficient means of defending newly liberated star nations they feel a moral obligation not to let slide into the impending morass of chaos. The GA would babysit a newsy liberated star nation until it got on its feet with an LAC presence and prepare the star nation to defend itself with an LAC force it can build a hyper capable SDF around.

LACs alone won't be sufficient. There is textev that the Talbott Quadrant is getting Mycroft system defense missile
nets as well as a couple of LAC winds for each system. A similar setup could be expected for the Silesian Protectorates, probably less capable and more secure there than in Talbott.

I think that a LAC+MDSDM+Moriarity/Mycroft is going to be the standard system defense model for all of human space for the foreseeable future. Some systems are going to opt for Frigates or Light Cruisers instead of LACs, and some systems are going to balk at Fission Powered LACs, but some variant of the basic setup is going to be used.

I'm sure there's going to be some very active competition between all of the various ship-building nations with unique LAC designs and variations on MDSDMs and control nets. Improved Andermani LACs will compete with Export Shrikes, Ferrets and Katanas from Manticore and Grayson with Maya/Erewhon, Haven and former SLN suppliers (like Technodyne) contributing to the mix.

Cataphracts, Apollo-SD, Havenite MDSM, and developments of Technodyne's pod based SDSDM will compete for the system defense missile installations. (Other competitors will emerge as well.)

I'm sure the Renaissance Factor (MAlign)is going to stick their oar in the mix as well, but I have a feeling they're going to be more "join us and we'll base a squadron or two at the base you'll build for them" style of "mutual defense."

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Well as soon as you fire you've pretty much lit off a flare showing where you all, the missile traces are unmistakable. Cataphracts launched towards that might not have the best targeting information but they're probably sufficiently threatening to push you into going active and bringing your active defenses online (rather thay trying to play a hole in space) and those have the downside of making you more visible (while also radically improving you ability to stop the incoming fire)

As for the 3rd drive you might be right. I went back and looked briefly and 2nd Manticore and the ranges were less than I thought - everybody appears to have been within 15 million km of their targets - way inside DDM range.


But the launch against Byng was equivalent to 30 million km (edge of DDM range - though Michele used towed Mk23s) and reports of that range had gone back to the League.

The real evidence would be that Crandal's force at Spindle was engaged from "five-three-point-niner-six million kilometers" (53,960,000 km) though the closing vector made that just a 7.5 minute, 450 second, launch which is equivalent to an at rest range of 45,643,500 km.
But I don't know if sufficiently detailed reports of that debacle got back to the League. If known, that range would imply either a 3rd drive (or extended range drives on a 2 drive missile; something we've never seen done).

Remember, they have pods. They have plenty of time to deploy every pod they have and get far away before things go hot--the Sollies could shoot up the empty pods if their missiles could acquire but that's it. They would only use their internal magazines if they felt safe doing so--the point here isn't a matter of defending the system or winning the battle, but giving the Sollies as bloody a nose as they can.

As for Spindle, I thought they only used two stages there--weren't they using some 2-stage shipboard missiles?

Like Theemile already said Spindle was using full up 3 drive Apollo MDM. (Albeit in the never before mentioned lightspeed control link mode; as none of the controlling ships carried Keyhole II for FTL fire control)


You can drop pods and sneak clear - but keeping your accel down to what you can hide under stealth means it takes a while to build up a good separation -- time the enemy might make an unexpected course change and start moving out of your firing envelope. (Plus even tight beam fire control links are likely hard to hide when you're necessarily broadcasting more or less towards the enemy -- overall it seems hard to maintain stealth after you launch missiles unless you use them are almost pure mines where the pods launch and leave the missiles on internal guidance the whole way to the target (very low hit probabilities at extended range)

But yes, getting separation should slow down the enemies acquisition of you, and hopefully have any immediate counter launch towards the pods be too far off target to redirect if/when they do spot you.

PeterZ wrote:

PeterZ wrote:When will they secede? My thoughts are that they won't secede along with Beowulf and other first movers. If they do, they get tagged as part of the movement that killed the Solarian League. If they secede later, they may be able to spin it as trying to be like the Phoenix rising from the ashes.

I think they will wait a bit and then break away. When you have a plan going for a half millennium you can wait a bit. Also, each of the planets could do a bit of growing, "assisting" poorer planets nearby and getting them ready to join.

Giving assistance and providing genetic "help" would be powerful. Offering leaders a way to have their children take a real step up is a powerful tool.

PeterZ wrote:
Here's the thing that's really gonna make the new Verge governments' jaws drop. That slick salesman/woman will also offer finance packages for everything from just the new LACs to new/additional orbital yards and resource extraction products.

"Say, What?!?" says the new star nation Chief Executive.

"That's right", smiles the sales person, "the interest rate on the offer is correct. We have to take into account your relative unproven financial history. Our consortium is offering Landing Imperial Issue rate + plus 5% risk premium. That assumes your government signs the Manticoran Alliance Economic Accord. These would be regulations consistent with those that govern all Manticoran Alliance members, like the Protectorship of Grayson. The risk premium will be higher, much higher as well as including much more restrictive covenants, if you chose not to adopt those regulations."

"But.....that rate is nearly half of what Pudder Mockers Limited offered for a couple of hospital facilities we were considering last year", the Chief Executive continued.

"Medical infrastructure?" asks the salesperson. "Well, Lady Harrington has decided to reduce the risk premium for loans she issues on medical infrastructure to 2%. Of course, the plans have to meet the stringent requirements approved by Dr. Allyson Beneton-Rameriez y Chou."

"Of the Beowulf Beneton-Rameriez y Chous?"

"Well, Lady Allison is the Duchess' mother after all."

"So we get access to defensive weapons more capable on a ton for ton basis than anything the SLN has. We get access to bleeding edge Beowulf quality medical technology. We get access resources to actually become economically independent from ANYONE including Manticore and the rate to finance all of this is between a third and half of the rate we have been getting from the Solarian League?", the Chief Execute repeats in a manner that expects a very heavy shoe to fall on his head.

"Well, yes, but if you think you can get a better rate elsewhere, please feel free to wait. I know Klaus Hauptman sent out his factors to this area as well. His group is a bit more well versed on commercial shipping systems than ours. I will add that our relationship with Grayson Skydomes lets us compete quite well on hazardous habitat environments, like moons. In any case, I'm sure you won't find our competitors' rates better than ours, but feel free to wait. My next appointment is in half an hour", the sales person says as she reaches for the delicious local tea the Chief Executive offered her. "By the way, who would I talk to about finding a supplier for this delightful beverage? Might your planet have something similar in a cocoa?"

I like the way you wrote this Peter. Well done.

Weird Harold wrote:LACs alone won't be sufficient. There is textev that the Talbott Quadrant is getting Mycroft system defense missile
nets as well as a couple of LAC winds for each system. A similar setup could be expected for the Silesian Protectorates, probably less capable and more secure there than in Talbott.

I think that a LAC+MDSDM+Moriarity/Mycroft is going to be the standard system defense model for all of human space for the foreseeable future. Some systems are going to opt for Frigates or Light Cruisers instead of LACs, and some systems are going to balk at Fission Powered LACs, but some variant of the basic setup is going to be used.

I'm sure there's going to be some very active competition between all of the various ship-building nations with unique LAC designs and variations on MDSDMs and control nets. Improved Andermani LACs will compete with Export Shrikes, Ferrets and Katanas from Manticore and Grayson with Maya/Erewhon, Haven and former SLN suppliers (like Technodyne) contributing to the mix.

Cataphracts, Apollo-SD, Havenite MDSM, and developments of Technodyne's pod based SDSDM will compete for the system defense missile installations. (Other competitors will emerge as well.)

I'm sure the Renaissance Factor (MAlign)is going to stick their oar in the mix as well, but I have a feeling they're going to be more "join us and we'll base a squadron or two at the base you'll build for them" style of "mutual defense."

LACs alone are indeed insufficient to defend against a military determined to destroy that star nation. They are however, sufficient for commerce raiders visiting the system and the sundry pirate believing the pickings are easy.

That's not to say the newly liberated star nation won't build up their navy as they get more financially secure. They likely will build up their navy. Even so, I doubt the SEM will allow fusion powered three drive missiles to be sold for export. They may sell capacitor powered dual drive missiles in the systems defense set-up. More likely license the tech to Talbot companies to build and export to Verge and ex-Protectorate nations.

What more proof is there that the SEM wants to have all their Imperial subjects and economic partners prosperous and secure?

PeterZ wrote:
Here's the thing that's really gonna make the new Verge governments' jaws drop. That slick salesman/woman will also offer finance packages for everything from just the new LACs to new/additional orbital yards and resource extraction products.

"Say, What?!?" says the new star nation Chief Executive.

"That's right", smiles the sales person, "the interest rate on the offer is correct. We have to take into account your relative unproven financial history. Our consortium is offering Landing Imperial Issue rate + plus 5% risk premium. That assumes your government signs the Manticoran Alliance Economic Accord. These would be regulations consistent with those that govern all Manticoran Alliance members, like the Protectorship of Grayson. The risk premium will be higher, much higher as well as including much more restrictive covenants, if you chose not to adopt those regulations."

"But.....that rate is nearly half of what Pudder Mockers Limited offered for a couple of hospital facilities we were considering last year", the Chief Executive continued.

"Medical infrastructure?" asks the salesperson. "Well, Lady Harrington has decided to reduce the risk premium for loans she issues on medical infrastructure to 2%. Of course, the plans have to meet the stringent requirements approved by Dr. Allyson Beneton-Rameriez y Chou."

"Of the Beowulf Beneton-Rameriez y Chous?"

"Well, Lady Allison is the Duchess' mother after all."

"So we get access to defensive weapons more capable on a ton for ton basis than anything the SLN has. We get access to bleeding edge Beowulf quality medical technology. We get access resources to actually become economically independent from ANYONE including Manticore and the rate to finance all of this is between a third and half of the rate we have been getting from the Solarian League?", the Chief Execute repeats in a manner that expects a very heavy shoe to fall on his head.

"Well, yes, but if you think you can get a better rate elsewhere, please feel free to wait. I know Klaus Hauptman sent out his factors to this area as well. His group is a bit more well versed on commercial shipping systems than ours. I will add that our relationship with Grayson Skydomes lets us compete quite well on hazardous habitat environments, like moons. In any case, I'm sure you won't find our competitors' rates better than ours, but feel free to wait. My next appointment is in half an hour", the sales person says as she reaches for the delicious local tea the Chief Executive offered her. "By the way, who would I talk to about finding a supplier for this delightful beverage? Might your planet have something similar in a cocoa?"

On top of insane financing offered by Manty corps and secured by the Manty crown, will be the cost of the machines themselves. Over the war, the scale of LACs being built was nearly insane, with 10s or 100s of thousands of LACs being built by both sides in less than 10 years. Applying that same engineering and keep it for the export LACs, and the cost of a squadron, basing, and spare parts should be far less than what a single old fashioned LAC can be purchased for elsewhere, making a wing of LACS a VERY enticing proposition that simply cannot be provided by anyone outside the GA.

PeterZ wrote:That's not to say the newly liberated star nation won't build up their navy as they get more financially secure. They likely will build up their navy. Even so, I doubt the SEM will allow fusion powered three drive missiles to be sold for export. They may sell capacitor powered dual drive missiles in the systems defense set-up. More likely license the tech to Talbot companies to build and export to Verge and ex-Protectorate nations.

What more proof is there that the SEM wants to have all their Imperial subjects and economic partners prosperous and secure?

Selling ERMs seems safer. It's unlikely that someone can reverse engineer their more robust (longer endurance) drive nodes and figure out how to more than double their already extended range.

But any true DDM or MDM has to contain the grav baffle (which keeps the active nodes from destroying the nearby inactive ones). Reverse engineering that off even a DDM allows you to build 3 or even 4 drive missiles. They may be big, but aside from the baffle they can be off the shelf technology.

(I say 'true' DDM or MDM because the MAlign at least didn't have baffles when they designed the Cataphracts. Those appears to be true staged missiles and much longer (and with smaller warhead) than an DDM of equivalent performance would be. I think the distance between the 1st stage's normal drive impellers and the 2nd stage's CM drive impellers helps prevent the CM impellers from getting wrecked -- but that means a 3 stage version would be very long to maintain that same separation between the 2nd and 3rd stage drives)

PeterZ wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:LACs alone won't be sufficient. There is textev that the Talbott Quadrant is getting Mycroft system defense missile
nets as well as a couple of LAC winds for each system. A similar setup could be expected for the Silesian Protectorates, probably less capable and more secure there than in Talbott.

I think that a LAC+MDSDM+Moriarity/Mycroft is going to be the standard system defense model for all of human space for the foreseeable future. Some systems are going to opt for Frigates or Light Cruisers instead of LACs, and some systems are going to balk at Fission Powered LACs, but some variant of the basic setup is going to be used.

I'm sure there's going to be some very active competition between all of the various ship-building nations with unique LAC designs and variations on MDSDMs and control nets. Improved Andermani LACs will compete with Export Shrikes, Ferrets and Katanas from Manticore and Grayson with Maya/Erewhon, Haven and former SLN suppliers (like Technodyne) contributing to the mix.

Cataphracts, Apollo-SD, Havenite MDSM, and developments of Technodyne's pod based SDSDM will compete for the system defense missile installations. (Other competitors will emerge as well.)

I'm sure the Renaissance Factor (MAlign)is going to stick their oar in the mix as well, but I have a feeling they're going to be more "join us and we'll base a squadron or two at the base you'll build for them" style of "mutual defense."

LACs alone are indeed insufficient to defend against a military determined to destroy that star nation. They are however, sufficient for commerce raiders visiting the system and the sundry pirate believing the pickings are easy.

That's not to say the newly liberated star nation won't build up their navy as they get more financially secure. They likely will build up their navy. Even so, I doubt the SEM will allow fusion powered three drive missiles to be sold for export. They may sell capacitor powered dual drive missiles in the systems defense set-up. More likely license the tech to Talbot companies to build and export to Verge and ex-Protectorate nations.

What more proof is there that the SEM wants to have all their Imperial subjects and economic partners prosperous and secure?

If the GA offers a multiple drive missile for 3rd parties, it will probably be either a derivative of the Cataphract (because it uses technology the SL already has) or it will be a derivative of the Havenite capacitor MDM. Either way, the fewest secrets possible are placed ourside of GA hands. Of course, Manty planets and full GA members would have access to full up Moriarty/Mycroft systems and non-export LACS.

In addition to export LACs and sysdef missile pods, further offerings should be a line of frigates, destroyers and light cruisers, which share as many common parts as possible with the export LACs (like missiles). That will entice systems who want a more robust force to incrementally purchase more without requiring redundant training and repair parts - and keeps them coming back with more business.

Theemile wrote:If the GA offers a multiple drive missile for 3rd parties, it will probably be either a derivative of the Cataphract (because it uses technology the SL already has) or it will be a derivative of the Havenite capacitor MDM. Either way, the fewest secrets possible are placed ourside of GA hands. Of course, Manty planets and full GA members would have access to full up Moriarty/Mycroft systems and non-export LACS.

In addition to export LACs and sysdef missile pods, further offerings should be a line of frigates, destroyers and light cruisers, which share as many common parts as possible with the export LACs (like missiles). That will entice systems who want a more robust force to incrementally purchase more without requiring redundant training and repair parts - and keeps them coming back with more business.

Yeah, relying on older Havenite tech for MDMs is an excellent solution to the problem. That tech is legacy compared to the what the tech mission to Bolthole will provide for Haven. Legacy tech that is a dead end with respect to where the GA missile tech is headed. That and its likely easier for the Verge and protectorate nations to support with the tech they currently possess.

Since Haven will have many more people available to send as consultants and educators to get the new nations up to speed, it helps that the tech those consultants are most familiar with will be what the new nations are using for defense weapons.

I wonder if Grayson will be sending their own consultants? They too have experience the sort of massive tech and educational upgrades Manticore provides. Grayson attitudes about meeting challenges head on would serve those Verge nations in good stead. Even though they don't aggressively evangelize, they aren't shy about sharing their faith. Might not that sort of exporting talent be a suitable recourse? Especially for those ladies with an education and a strong desire to use that education to meet their Test.

If there are such ladies, Lady Harrington would likely be most agreeable to investing in those consultancy enterprises. Starting schools and hospitals and all sorts of services only someone from a newly elevated society like Grayson would truly understand. Yeah, those ventures will advise the local governments and charge a fee, but they won't milk those governments into penury. Skydomes Hazardous Habitats and Infrastructure, Harrington Medical Services, Harrington Naval Systems and finally Grayson Support Systems are all the sorts of services/businesses Steadholder Harrington can encourage both her Graysons and her Gryphons to engage in. Toss in Alfred and Allyson's contribution to attracting qualified personnel and those ventures will be successfully helping the Verge and Protectorates pretty quickly.